Female Russian skate stars rise fast, but burn out too soon

This thread was initially posted elsewhere, however, was prefaced with discrimination and therefore removed.

Feel free to discuss your take on French journalist Jean-Christophe Berlot's analysis who wrote this piece for NBC Sports.

I agree with his definition of the current problem as "the “Kleenex syndrome” of female skating – you take one, use it, and then throw it".

In Russia there used to be a saying about expendability of soldiers during a war - "бабы новых нарожают" ("women will birth plenty more of new ones" (to replace the ones being killed)).

I don't think anything will change unless parents revolt. It looks like the trend to use children as primary means to earn medals reached USFS, with Alyssa's win. Look at female gymnastics - it's all youngsters. Once they mature, they are done.

I thought it was just basically an opinion piece that I found pretty uninformative and a bit presumptuous.. It didn’t trigger me or anything though but it did seem disrespectful on several levels.

My take on it.

1) I’m glad that this journalist didn’t get to interview Eteri or Alina.
2) Lipnitskaya did not just disappear!! She still competed unsuccessfully and commentated a season and has begun coaching and performing in Ice Shows. She did bring us some really great moments post Sochi and her heartfelt skating hardly “disappeared”. I think that remark really shows this reporters mindset and loose use of facts.
3) Using Masha’s Quote from the interview where she comments about nasty remarks/stories in the media and how it distracts and can actually hurt athletes carries a special irony that I hope does not elude the author.
4)Sofya’s amazing journey and success here is hardly discussed :confused2:

It’s a sport and so long as the method of having skaters learn as much as possible as fast as possible wins competitions then it will continue.

However the best point was here:

Yet how does skating as a whole benefit from the Kleenex syndrome? The 2015 and 2016 Worlds gold medalist, Javier Fernandez, was clear, it’s penalizing skating: “Why would you come to watch a competition, if after just a few years a skater you had enjoyed watching doesn’t even compete anymore?” he asked.

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We shall see if skating in Russia and Japan suffers like it has in the USA. When the ISU’s bottom line is hurt then there will be changes.

For now I actually think a study about young adults who train as elite level skaters should be conducted and the results revealed after the Beijing Olympics. Perhaps we will find out that the problem isn’t an age one but about bad technique? Or overtraining? If there was a proper study we could at least base any changes on evidence rather that any sort of nationalistic bias.

It’s simple. You don’t have to ‘burn out’ if you want it enough, if you try hard enough and train properly.

Sam-Skwantch said:

3) Using Masha’s Quote from the interview where she comments about nasty remarks/stories in the media and how it distracts it hurts athletes carries a special irony that I hope does not elude the author.

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Could you explain this? Do you mean Sotkova has said bad things in the past or that you think this is a hit piece?

I think in the case of Lipnitskaya she meant disappeared from competition. For the average viewer once you start coaching you may as well have fallen off the face of the earth.

IndiaP12 said:

It’s simple. You don’t have to ‘burn out’ if you want it enough, if you try hard enough and train properly.

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Idealistically you are right; practically no. Money, injuries, personal life, genetics,how others do, politics - it all plays a role.

So Russia started this "trend" of using children that the USFS is now just following?

Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Naomi Nari Nam, Sarah Hughes, Mirai Nagasu

They were all very young and this goes back more than 25 years.

Casual said:

I don't think anything will change unless parents revolt. It looks like the trend to use children as primary means to earn medals reached USFS, with Alyssa's win. Look at female gymnastics - it's all youngsters. Once they mature, they are done.

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Is this actually the case in gymnastics? I don't follow gymnastics, but I am aware of Simone Biles and Aly Raisman having fairly lengthy and successful careers well after puberty.

DSQ said:

Could you explain this? Do you mean Sotkova has said bad things in the past or that you think this is a hit piece?

I think in the case of Lipnitskaya she meant disappeared from competition. For the average viewer once you start coaching you may as well have fallen off the face of the earth.

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Masha said that people often don’t realize that skaters just want to share something beautiful with the world and try their best and that negative media and remarks can really hurt an athlete’s motivation. She said it needs to be ignored. The irony is that an article that seems rather negative to my eyes is using a quote from a young athlete who was actually speaking to the effects of such articles...like the one being linked here. YMMV.

Sadly the article referenced was an Ice Network interview so I can’t link it

As to Yulia: She competed from 2010 (her first Russian Nats) until 2016 Rostelecom Cup. Kung Fu Panda is a classic!! She kept going for two full years after Sochi and then retired after her first GP event in the 16-17 season for reasons we all know. Mental health. No one threw her out as the author callously suggests.

lesnar001 said:

So Russia started this "trend" of using children that the USFS is now just following?

Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Naomi Nari Nam, Sarah Hughes, Mirai Nagasu

They were all very young and this goes back more than 25 years.

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Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes rather support the Kleenex syndrome, don't you think? Didn't work then, doesn't work now. Teach them young, teach them to jump, yawn through unartistic performances... blink, and they disappear.

Michelle Kwan was like Mozart. Once (or twice) in a lifetime.

Also, what seems to be happening now, is the age is being pushed further and further down. Jumping beans are fantastic, but is it truly the direction where we want to take this sport?

I'm uncomfortable with younger and younger kids being pushed more and more. It seems dangerous (unhealthy in the long run).

Casual said:

Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes rather support the Kleenex syndrome, don't you think? Didn't work then, doesn't work now. Teach them young, teach them to jump, yawn through unartistic performances... blink, and they disappear.

Michelle Kwan was like Mozart. Once (or twice) in a lifetime.

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No I don't think so.

Tara and Sarah weren't "tossed aside" for younger skaters.

Tara left because of injuries.
Sarah left to attend college.

lesnar001 said:

No I don't think so.

Tara and Sarah weren't "tossed aside" for younger skaters.

Tara left because of injuries.
Sarah left to attend college.

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While you're right that the difference may be whose decision it was (to leave), the mechanics of why are similar. Started young, and shortly burned out (couldn't compete anymore).

The question is, should we focus on training very young kids very difficult jumps (and to hell with injuries and longevity)? Or on a longer term?

I think is a little hypocrite on the USA media to write this article... USA media is the same in all sports, looking for the IT girl, and showering her in coverage and creating a perfect image, only to drop her as soon as the next big thing comes alone...

USA just crowned a 13 yo as the senior champion and they are calling Russia on the fact that the 3 top places are 14 almost 15, is very biased.

It's particularly tough for the Russian women, and to a lesser extent the Japanese women. Skaters like Adelina, Julia, and Liza were bumped off the team following their triumphs, and all three would have made a world team being from almost any other country besides Japan and possibly the US. This season, Evgenia got edged out a few times by our top senior American, whereas she was miles from the podium at Russian Nationals. There's no opportunity for these skaters to focus on peaking later in the season because from those two countries you have to be great from October to February. As a result, someone like Adelina could medal at a GP event and yet not come close to making it to Worlds, where she really wants to compete. Of course these skaters will move onto other things if the best assignments they'll get is GP events, given that they've won much bigger prizes.

Casual said:

Pravda has much better sports articles, I'm sure.

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Are you just trying to encourage bickering? This is clearly an opinion piece. It’s natural that people won’t agree with such strong opinions based on speculation and peacing together of several loosely relatable “facts”. I see nothing wrong with holding NBC accountable and associating them with stories they approve for publishing.

From the Article sub headline:

This is his analysis of the pace and progression of women’s skating around the world.

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It’s pretty heavily dependent upon his opinions and his version of facts. Even if those facts are skewed by his own bias as I’ve already eluded to above. No idea why they paid for this guy to go to this event (maybe he was already there) when he could have written the same thing from his bedroom using only GS threads as his source. Hopefully next time they send someone who actually offers insight into the actual skating but hey...who am I to tell people how to run their buisiness. I can just seek info elsewhere.

cruzceleste said:

I think is a little hypocrite on the USA media to write this article... USA media is the same in all sports, looking for the IT girl, and showering her in coverage and creating a perfect image, only to drop her as soon as the next big thing comes alone...

USA just crowned a 13 yo as the senior champion and they are calling Russia on the fact that the 3 top places are 14 almost 15, is very biased.

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This dude is representing himself not the USA. I can attest to that

Casual said:

Also, what seems to be happening now, is the age is being pushed further and further down. Jumping beans are fantastic, but is it truly the direction where we want to take this sport?

I'm uncomfortable with younger and younger kids being pushed more and more. It seems dangerous (unhealthy in the long run).

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And what jumping beans were at European Championship, exactly?
You see, that reporter was given a task to present the tournament under particular angle - the angle maximally disparaging all russian skating achievements. Your just fall victim to shameless manipulation - don't be so gullible, people The most bright example of such manipulation would be this line

Samodurova and Konstantinova, the most physically mature of the Russian squad in Minsk, stated firmly that they were there to last in the sport.

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for example I mean, seriously? 16 y.o. Samodurova is mature at the level of 18 y.o. Konstantinova - while 16 y.o. Zagitova surprisingly is not mature enough Can you trust the reporter when he sink to such blatant lie?
Even "kleenex syndrome" humiliating rhetoric speaks for itself. At the same time they just don't want to see obvious causes of current trend in fs. First, the cause of Zagitova bad performances is puberty - it's simple as that. While some people (Samodurova) can go through it rather easily - others will always struggle with it due to specifics of their constitution, body etc. It's widely known fact and natural phenomenon - yet there wasn't even mention of the most obvious explanation. Of course it's because of evil russians torturing kids
Second, the so called "kleenex syndrome" issue is quite natural phenomenon as well. Moreover - it's not Eteri fault and not even a problem in itself. Rather it's a sign of golden era of fs in Russia. Yep, when it's too good - it's becoming bad within narrow bounds of dated system. Currently we have unprecedented boom of ladies talents in Russia where almost all participants of RusNat for example (18 skaters) can get higher place than Lindfors in Euro Championship. Isn't it a miracle? Of course it is! However NBCSport is never going to admit it. Praise russians? Never on their duty! )) So they are trying to find any flaws they can and put all attention only on that. And what else they can do? American ladies skaters are not exactly praiseworthy nowadays after all.
Still, fast change of leaders/short careers is inevitable with so high concentration of strong athletes in one country. Fernandez, for example, just don't understand what he is saying - in Spain and even Europe is very low competition within men's field - so of course he can allow himself to skate very relaxed and calm for many years without issues. With high competition such long career is not possible. Quads, age - they have nothing to do with it. And what they propose to solve this problem? The most obvious answer would be to try capitalize on that unprecedented boom as soon as possible, push sport forward, create many stars to promote them through the sky - let them change the rules, add extra quotes for strong countries, create professional leagues with ranking scores as criterias for participation etc. It's good situation so everyone should be glad about it, shouldn't they?
No, we don't want it - let's raise the age :sarcasm: And lock all that talents in their pond where they just perish and rot Well, duh.. it's a problem for many countries when talents are mostly only in one country or two. Problem due to political reasons, of course, which is obvious but will be offtopic to discuss here. Still it's a shame when politics plays such large role in a sport.

Elucidus said:

And what jumping beans were at EuropeanChampionship, exactly?
You see, that reporter was given a task to present the tournament under particular angle - the angle maximally disparaging all russian skating achievements. Your just fall victim to shameless manipulation - don't be so gullible, people The most bright example of such manipulation would be this line for example I mean, seriously? 16 y.o. Samodurova is mature at the level of 18 y.o. Konstantinova - while 16 y.o. Zagitova surprisingly is not mature enough Can you trust the reporter when he sink to such blatant lie?
Even "kleenex syndrome" humiliating rhetoric speaks for itself. At the same time they just don't want to see obvious causes of current trend in fs. First, the cause of Zagitova bad performances is puberty - it's simple as that. While some people (Samodurova) can go through it rather easily - others will always struggle with it due to specifics of their constitution, body etc. It's widely known fact and natural phenomenon - yet there wasn't even mention of the most obvious explanation. Of course it's because of evil russians torturing kids
Second, the so called "kleenex syndrome" issue is quite natural phenomenon as well. Moreover - it's not Eteri fault and not even a problem in itself. Rather it's a sign of golden era of fs in Russia. Yep, when it's too good - it's becoming bad within narrow bounds of dated system. Currently we have unprecedented boom of ladies talents in Russia where almost all participants of RusNat for example (18 skaters) can get higher place than Lindfors in Euro Championship. Isn't it a miracle? Of course it is! However NBCSport is never going to admit it. Praise russians? Never on their duty! )) So they are trying to find any flaws they can and put all attention only on that. And what else they can do? American ladies skaters are not exactly praiseworthy nowadays after all.
Still, fast change of leaders/short careers is inevitable with so high concentrantion of strong athletes in one country. Fernandez, for example, just don't understand what he is saying - in Spain and even Europe is very low competition within men's field - so of course he can allow himself to skate very relaxed and calm for many years without issues. With high competition such long career is not possible. And what they propose to solve this problem? The most obvious answer would be to try capitalize on that unprecedented boom as soon as possible, push sport forward, create many stars to promote it through the sky - let them change the rules, add extra quotes for strong countries, create professional leagues with ranking scores as criterias for participation etc. It's good situation so everyone should be glad about it, shouldn't they?
No, let's raise the age :sarcasm: And lock all that talents in their pond where they just perish and rot. Well, duh.. it's a problem for many countries when talents are mostly only in one or two. Problem due to political reasons, of course, which is obvious but will be offtopic to discuss here. Still it's a shame when politics plays such large role in a sport.

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Why are you so revolted? The article states a fact: female Russian skaters stars rise fast, but burn out too soon.
And in regards with Eteri there is already a pattern... as soon as her ladies have more mature bodies, everything falls apart. I do not know the reasons, probably a mix of bad technique suitable only for pre-puberty skaters and bad psychological methods.