Female Russian skate stars rise fast, but burn out too soon

Casual said:

I agree with his definition of the current problem as "the “Kleenex syndrome” of female skating – you take one, use it, and then throw it".

In Russia there used to be a saying about expendability of soldiers during a war - "бабы новых нарожают" ("women will birth plenty more of new ones" (to replace the ones being killed)).

I don't think anything will change unless parents revolt. It looks like the trend to use children as primary means to earn medals reached USFS, with Alyssa's win. Look at female gymnastics - it's all youngsters. Once they mature, they are done.

Click to expand...

Wow! This is a quite hatefull and false rhetoric you have. You took the concept of "Cannon Fodder" (a derogatory term used to refer to expendable soldiers) and made it sound as if Russia invented it or as if Russia is the only one who used it. Many countries (including France or Great Britain) have a "saying" for this situation.

Also to compare this to russian figure skaters is degrading for the ladies:no:

madison said:

Why are you so revolted? The article states a fact: female Russian skaters stars rise fast, but burn out too soon.
And in regards with Eteri there is already a pattern... as soon as her ladies have more mature bodies, everything falls apart. I do not know the reasons, probably a mix of bad technique suitable only for pre-puberty skaters and bad psychological methods.

Click to expand...

I am resented by the angle. The same fact could be presented with different angle entirely. Moreover, the EuroChamp is not exactly a tournament where such fact even can illustrate it - it would be more appropriate for RusNat, for example.
About Eteri - how many skaters during puberty do you know with other couches - who didn't suffer at that period at all? Ok, Samodurova, who else?

Elucidus said:

I am resented by the angle. The same fact could be presented with different angle entirely. Moreover, the EuroChamp is not exactly a tournament where such fact even can illustrate it - it would be more appropriate for RusNat, for example.
About Eteri - how many skaters during puberty do you know with other couches - who didn't suffer at that period at all? Ok, Samodurova, who else?

Click to expand...

Sofya is doing great for example. Liza, Anna P. won medals with their mature bodies.
The problem is not that Eteri's skaters have some issues during this time, but that they collapse and dissapear totally after that.

Casual said:

Look at female gymnastics - it's all youngsters. Once they mature, they are done.

Click to expand...

andromache said:

Is this actually the case in gymnastics? I don't follow gymnastics, but I am aware of Simone Biles and Aly Raisman having fairly lengthy and successful careers well after puberty.

Click to expand...

I may not be the most avid gymnastics fan and I only got more into it fairly recently (though I've been watching casually for years), but that is nowhere near the case. Sure, there are plenty of youngsters and some of them also shine really brightly and then either fade out or get injured or just move on from the sport, but I find that gymnastics is much kinder to aging women than skating. In FS, it seems like the "older gals" (ugh ) get a shot at medals pretty much only when the younger ones have a meltdown or get injured. With gymnasts it's pretty much anyone's game. Maybe the younger ones have a better shot at AA, because it requires more energy, but if the gymnast is a specialist at a certain event or events, if they're not injured, if they're in good shape and have the motivation, I feel like they have a good chance even if they're older. Plenty of ladies over 20 have medalled at major events in gymnastics, which certainly cannot be said about the ladies of figure skating hwell:

madison said:

Sofya is doing great for example. Liza, Anna P. won medals with their mature bodies.
The problem is not that Eteri's skaters have some issues during this time, but that they collapse and dissapear totally after that.

Click to expand...

Medvedeva was able to pass the puberty under Eteri and we can't say that she disappeared. Still, I think Eteri didn't have very long couch career yet - therefore it's not enough statistical data to claim that it's fault of her technique and not combination of some natural reasons. We still should wait and see, I believe.

Elucidus said:

Medvedeva was able to pass the puberty under Eteri and we can't say that she disappeared. Still, I think Eteri didn't have very long couch career yet - therefore it's not enough statistical data to claim that it's fault of her technique and not combination of some natural reasons. We still should wait and see, I believe.

Click to expand...

Was she? Her body looks changed now if we compare it with a year ago.

This is getting uncomfortable now :scard7:

It seems like we have had this discussion before. (I can't remember how we resolved it, though.)

madison said:

Sofya is doing great for example. Liza, Anna P. won medals with their mature bodies.
The problem is not that Eteri's skaters have some issues during this time, but that they collapse and dissapear totally after that.

Click to expand...

It's obviously not ideal for skaters to burn out. But I think a lot of people would prefer to peak at an important moment than have a long career with good results. I would guess more people would want Julia's (OGM, WSM), Evgenia's (2x WGM, 2x OSM), or Alina's (OGM, OSM) results than Anna's.

madison said:

Was she? Her body looks changed now if we compare it with a year ago.

Click to expand...

Alina's too. She's grown up a bit.

madison said:

Was she? Her body looks changed now if we compare it with a year ago.

Click to expand...

Medvedeva had the leave the Eteri camp to have any hope of surviving past puberty.

People like to paint this as an anti-Russia thing, but for me it certainly isn't. The Russians are just the most obvious example at the moment because of the dominance (though that seems to be changing a bit) of Eteri's camp there, where to my knowledge, no female skater has yet made it through puberty to successfully compete.

I cringed when Alyssa Liu won the American championships. That poor girl has no idea what she's in for. I think it's appalling that Tara Lipinski was allowed, as a child, to destroy her hips to the point she had no choice but to retire at 15. Where the heck were all the adults who should have been looking out for her long-term well-being?

I was happy that Stephen Gogolev did not win the Canadian championship. That's way too much pressure to put on a 14 year old kid, even though puberty does not affect boys the way it does girls.

I'm personally uninterested in watching children compete, and thus don't watch juniors. I'm all for raising the age limit for ladies. I think the author is wrong about that. I do think it would do a lot to solve the problem of skaters burning out too fast. Most ladies have at least begun to go through puberty at 16, even athletes for whom puberty can be delayed due to intense training regimens and strict diets (I won't even get into the ones that are starving themselves to try to stave it off for just a little longer, that's a whole other issue). It would encourage the teaching of sustainable technique, and not encourage an unhealthy fear of puberty in girls.

This sport needs athletes that people can latch onto and follow — like Fernandez winning his 7th European championships. His statement is absolutely correct.

Elucidus said:

Medvedeva was able to pass the puberty under Eteri and we can't say that she disappeared. Still, I think Eteri didn't have very long couch career yet - therefore it's not enough statistical data to claim that it's fault of her technique and not combination of some natural reasons. We still should wait and see, I believe.

Click to expand...

Agree, Eteri is "young" coach

rain said:

Medvedeva had the leave the Eteri camp to have any hope of surviving past puberty.

Click to expand...

No, it was not a main reason

I would like to see the following trend for ladies' skating (regardless of where they are Russian, American or Chinese):

1) Don't hurt the children! Which means, better safe than sorry, don't push them too soon, too hard, too dangerous. Even an OGM is not worth it.

So, safety above all (which IMO means, research the impact on young bodies of doing all these 3A and quads at a tender age - and take it slower if warranted.) Pay particular attention to healthy eating habits and psychological burnout, too.

2) Spend as much time developing artistry as jumps. "Maturity" in skating doesn't come with age; it comes from the time spent on developing artistry and finesse. (Ballet lessons, music lessons, whatever it takes to develop a well-rounded "dancer on ice", not just a "jumper on ice").

3) Have fun, and (hopefully) as injury-free and as long career as possible - so that fans can enjoy following their careers for a long time.

I watch figure skating because I love the art and athleticism - but what I definitely would NOT enjoy, is watching little baby gladiators duking it out at a tender age, and quickly getting "killed off" (carried off the ice one way or the other), hurt and burned out.

“The problem is that Eteri is very much criticized in Russia at the moment,” a noted Russian journalist explained. “People think that she pushes her pupils at a very young age and after a year or two they are done for the sport.”

Click to expand...

I think the problem is mostly related to weight gain and growth spurts. Yulia Lipnitskaya and Elena Radionova could not cope well with their adult bodies, which set their jumps off-balance. Alina Zagitova is going through the same phase now. Female figure skaters generally peak at 15 or 16. Alysa Liu still has a few more years to achieve her full potential.

Lota said:

I may not be the most avid gymnastics fan and I only got more into it fairly recently (though I've been watching casually for years), but that is nowhere near the case. Sure, there are plenty of youngsters and some of them also shine really brightly and then either fade out or get injured or just move on from the sport, but I find that gymnastics is much kinder to aging women than skating. In FS, it seems like the "older gals" (ugh ) get a shot at medals pretty much only when the younger ones have a meltdown or get injured. With gymnasts it's pretty much anyone's game. Maybe the younger ones have a better shot at AA, because it requires more energy, but if the gymnast is a specialist at a certain event or events, if they're not injured, if they're in good shape and have the motivation, I feel like they have a good chance even if they're older. Plenty of ladies over 20 have medalled at major events in gymnastics, which certainly cannot be said about the ladies of figure skating hwell:

Click to expand...

That is not true exactly. First, in gymnastics there are more apparatuses - more chances to medal. There are gymnasts like Sanne Wevers - 27 yo - who only does beam high level. Thats why you feel that when you hear that her or oksana chusovitina ( only does vault) 43 yo are winning medals you feel that more older gymnasts are winning. Imagine if carolina kostner would do only the artistic part or Tuk only jumping. Top 10 WC 2018 in figure skating are more or less same age with top 10 WC 2018 gymnasts

Some numbers:
2018 World Championship
Gold Team USA
Simone Biles 21 yo
Kara Eaker 16
Morgan Hurd 17
Grace McCallum 16
Riley McCusker 17

Vault Gold Simone Biles 21
Uneven Bars Gold Nina Derwael 18
Balance beam Gold Liu Tingting 18
Floor Gold Simone Biles 21

All Around Top 10 WC

Simone Biles 21
Mai Murakami 22
Morgan Hurd 17
Nina Derwael 18
Angelina Melnikova 18
Mélanie de Jesus dos Santos 18
Chen Yile 17
Flávia Saraiva 19
Luo Huan 18
Asuka Teramoto 23


2018 European Championship
Team Gold Russia
Lilia Akhaimova 21
Irina Alexeeva 16
Angelina Melnikova 18
Ulyana Perebinosova 17
Angelina Simakova 16

Vault Gold (Hungary) Boglárka Dévai 19
Uneven bars Gold (Belgium) Nina Derwael 18
Balance beam Gold (Netherlands) Sanne Wevers 27
Floor Gold (France Mélanie) de Jesus dos Santos 18

2016 Olympics Rio
Gold Team USA
Simone Biles 19
Gabrielle Douglas 21
Laurie Hernandez 16
Madison Kocian 19
Alexandra Raisman 22


2018 World Championships Figure Skating Top 10

1 Kaetlyn Osmond 23
2 Wakaba Higuchi 18
3 Satoko Miyahara 20
4 Carolina Kostner 31
5 Alina Zagitova 16
6 Bradie Tennell 20
7 Gabrielle Daleman 21
8 Maria Sotskova 18
9 Loena Hendrickx 19
10 Mirai Nagasu 25


2018 Olympics Figure Skating Top 10

1 Alina Zagitova 16
2 Evgenia Medvedeva 19
3 Kaetlyn Osmond 23
4 Satoko Miyahara 20
5 Carolina Kostner 31
6 Kaori Sakamoto 18
7 Choi Da-bin 19
8 Maria Sotskova 18
9 Bradie Tennell 20

rain said:

I think it's appalling that Tara Lipinski was allowed, as a child, to destroy her hips to the point she had no choice but to retire at 15. Where the heck were all the adults who should have been looking out for her long-term well-being?

Click to expand...

That was my point exactly. Unless (until) parents revolt, nothing will change.

And with Alyssa's win it looks like USFS is happy to follow the Russian suit.

Casual said:

I would like to see the following trend for ladies' skating (regardless of where they are Russian, American or Chinese):

1) Don't hurt the children! Which means, better safe than sorry, don't push them too soon, too hard, too dangerous. Even an OGM is not worth it.

So, safety above all (which IMO means, research the impact on young bodies of doing all these 3A and quads at a tender age - and take it slower if warranted.) Pay particular attention to healthy eating habits and psychological burnout, too.

2) Spend as much time developing artistry as jumps. "Maturity" in skating doesn't come with age; it comes from the time spent on developing artistry and finesse. (Ballet lessons, music lessons, whatever it takes to develop a well-rounded "dancer on ice", not just a "jumper on ice").

3) Have fun, and (hopefully) as injury-free and as long career as possible - so that fans can enjoy following their careers for a long time.

I watch figure skating because I love the art and athleticism - but what I definitely would NOT enjoy, is watching little baby gladiators duking it out at a tender age, and quickly getting "killed off" (carried off the ice one way or the other), hurt and burned out.

Click to expand...

Welcome to Gala ( you will find there all what you’re wants)

sailormoon said:

I think the problem is mostly related to weight gain and growth spurts. Yulia Lipnitskaya and Elena Radionova could not cope well with their adult bodies, which set their jumps off-balance. Alina Zagitova is going through the same phase now. Female figure skaters generally peak at 15 or 16. Alysa Liu still has a few more years to achieve her full potential.

Click to expand...

Female figure skaters do not peak at 15 or 16 — or at least they don't have to. That's really the whole problem in a nutshell.

Another example would be Polina Shelepen. Won 2 silver medals at the Junior Grand Prix Final and then struggled in her first senior season and retired with a long standing injury. I feel like no one talks about Polina. She had one of the shortest careers ever next to Tara Lipinski.