Female Russian skate stars rise fast, but burn out too soon

Lunalovesskating · Jan 31, 2019

rain said:
Female figure skaters do not peak at 15 or 16 — or at least they don't have to. That's really the whole problem in a nutshell.

Yeees!!! There are so many great examples of skaters who peaked in their 20s in my opinion. Carolina Kostner, Irina Slutskaya, Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, Miki Ando, Midori Ito, Kristi Yamaguchi etc.
Artistry develops over time and I feel like too many skaters retired before they could fully develop their artistry.

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 31, 2019

rain said:
Female figure skaters do not peak at 15 or 16 — or at least they don't have to. That's really the whole problem in a nutshell.

No one should feel shamed for peaking at an earlier age any more than anyone should feel ashamed to peak later in their career. I think it’s unfair to characterize it as a problem.

vorravorra · Jan 31, 2019

cruzceleste said:
I think is a little hypocrite on the USA media to write this article... USA media is the same in all sports, looking for the IT girl, and showering her in coverage and creating a perfect image, only to drop her as soon as the next big thing comes alone...

USA just crowned a 13 yo as the senior champion and they are calling Russia on the fact that the 3 top places are 14 almost 15, is very biased.

Kostornaia is 15.5 actually. Unlucky to be born in August.

Tolstoj · Jan 31, 2019

On the other hand here's Mishin with Elizaveta Tuktamysheva still being a top skater after all these years, and Sofia Samodurova newly crowned European Champion (and he also has Anastasiia Gulyakova ready to compete in seniors GP next season), Evgenia Medvedeva career is only a season shorter than Sasha Cohen,...

We can criticize Alina Zagitova all day but she is still there, at her best she is still a potential medalist at Worlds, her career is not done yet.

I think this is more a stigma people have created intentionally or unintentionally based on the impression that these girls peak at a young age, or based on the fact that when Eteri's skaters leave that group they can't achieve anything.

hanyuufan5 · Jan 31, 2019

So, what is the alternative? Set a higher age limit just for Russians? Or for everyone? Are we supposed to hold skaters back because of their nationalities or ages?

oatmella · Jan 31, 2019

If ladies skating is going the 3A/quad route, seems unlikely that many in the future will be peaking in their 20s.

Raf has suggested changing the age requirement for seniors to 18!

Scott512 · Jan 31, 2019

lesnar001 said:
So Russia started this "trend" of using children that the USFS is now just following?

Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Naomi Nari Nam, Sarah Hughes, Mirai Nagasu

They were all very young and this goes back more than 25 years.

Touche!

Truth. Tara was world champ at 14 olympic champ at 15 then retired. Hmmm.

You left Alysa off your list. US Nats champ at...13...beating women in their 20s.. Again hmmm.

Scott512 · Jan 31, 2019

rain said:
Medvedeva had the leave the Eteri camp to have any hope of surviving past puberty.

People like to paint this as an anti-Russia thing, but for me it certainly isn't. The Russians are just the most obvious example at the moment because of the dominance (though that seems to be changing a bit) of Eteri's camp there, where to my knowledge, no female skater has yet made it through puberty to successfully compete.

I cringed when Alyssa Liu won the American championships. That poor girl has no idea what she's in for. I think it's appalling that Tara Lipinski was allowed, as a child, to destroy her hips to the point she had no choice but to retire at 15. Where the heck were all the adults who should have been looking out for her long-term well-being?

I was happy that Stephen Gogolev did not win the Canadian championship. That's way too much pressure to put on a 14 year old kid, even though puberty does not affect boys the way it does girls.

I'm personally uninterested in watching children compete, and thus don't watch juniors. I'm all for raising the age limit for ladies. I think the author is wrong about that. I do think it would do a lot to solve the problem of skaters burning out too fast. Most ladies have at least begun to go through puberty at 16, even athletes for whom puberty can be delayed due to intense training regimens and strict diets (I won't even get into the ones that are starving themselves to try to stave it off for just a little longer, that's a whole other issue). It would encourage the teaching of sustainable technique, and not encourage an unhealthy fear of puberty in girls.

This sport needs athletes that people can latch onto and follow — like Fernandez winning his 7th European championships. His statement is absolutely correct.

Zhenya passed puberty under Eteri in 2016 / 2017 repeated as world champion in 2017 then skated great at olympics in 2018 at age 18 as a maturing young lady. Because Zhenya left Eteri doesn't change that important fact.

rain · Jan 31, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
No one should feel shamed for peaking at an earlier age any more than anyone should feel ashamed to peak later in their career. I think it’s unfair to characterize it as a problem.

The problem is with the statement that female figure skaters categorically peak at age 15-16. That's an incredibly destructive statement and also untrue.

beachmouse · Jan 31, 2019

andromache said:
Is this actually the case in gymnastics? I don't follow gymnastics, but I am aware of Simone Biles and Aly Raisman having fairly lengthy and successful careers well after puberty.

There's a lot of crashing and burning at age 14-15 in the US system, and a number of athletes decide at that point to dial it back and aim for an NCAA university scholarship at that point in the name of preserving their joy in the sport rather than trying to an international team spot.

Even before the Nassar problem came to light, USA Gymnastics had the talent pool depth to run their programs as meat grinder/treat girls like kleenex, and I've rather spent most of the 21st century cheering against the American female gymnasts in favor of the Russian and Romanian systems that seemed to put more effort into keeping promising athletes healthier and more engaged in the sport and didn't see them as mere parts that could easily be replaced in the machine like the US girls so often seemed to be.

With skating I just can't find myself really caring about a girl until her second senior season. Even Elaine Zayak, one of the prototypes for the modern jumping bean figure skaters, managed two good world championship podium seasons.

chopinskate · Jan 31, 2019

Strange that this topic keeps popping up every week.

bobbob · Feb 1, 2019

Of course a long career is better than a short career. But in many of these cases, its not a choice between rising for a short time or rising for a long time; it is between rising for a short time or not rising at all. If some of these girls don't attempt the high difficulty elements when they can handle it consistently and maybe gain some recognition, they will never be able to.

The new Russian technique has resulted in a lot of young girls who rise for a short time with low longevity. But compare that to before, where there were a few ones with longer longevity--there is much more success now. Put it this way, if there was an emphasis on longevity...we wouldn't even be talking about Russian ladies right now. Liza Tuk may be the only one.

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 1, 2019

chopinskate said:
Strange that this topic keeps popping up every week.

Not really. I think we can all understand that there is genuine concern for safety of the kids who compete and the direction of the sport but I think it needs to be balanced out too. I mean...there aren’t rinks full of 22 year old women who can do seven triple programs who aren’t getting a chance to compete because of what’s happening in Russia right now. They might not be wining but they aren’t being left at home. It’s the younger kids that are being shut out so it’s not that surprising that they are the ones pushing the technical levels to stand out.

I think this post is very important to consider regarding age and major international competitions last year.

Georgya said:
2018 World Championships Figure Skating Top 10

1 Kaetlyn Osmond 23
2 Wakaba Higuchi 18
3 Satoko Miyahara 20
4 Carolina Kostner 31
5 Alina Zagitova 16
6 Bradie Tennell 20
7 Gabrielle Daleman 21
8 Maria Sotskova 18
9 Loena Hendrickx 19
10 Mirai Nagasu 25

2018 Olympics Figure Skating Top 10

1 Alina Zagitova 16
2 Evgenia Medvedeva 19
3 Kaetlyn Osmond 23
4 Satoko Miyahara 20
5 Carolina Kostner 31
6 Kaori Sakamoto 18
7 Choi Da-bin 19
8 Maria Sotskova 18
9 Bradie Tennell 20

I honestly think people have a problem with younger kids winning as opposed to competing. The article did a terrible job of presenting an honest assessment and basically served as a rant IMO. It’s a reasonable topic but not like this. I take huge exception to the idea that Yulia was tossed out like a Kleenex and disappeared. That girl showed up despite her struggles and did two full seasons after Sochi and several smaller events. No one dropped her just because she wasn’t able to match the fire she had when making her several season impressive run up to the Olympics.

To address the author of this article I’ll say this. I’m 100% convinced that the main reason for short careers in Russia is the limiting of spots by nation. There just isn’t room for error in the Russian field. That’s probably the biggest source of pressure on these ladies. I’m not suggesting it needs to change either. I’m simply saying see it for what it is. The author didn’t even include it in the discussion and I find it telling about their sincerity and overall comprehension of the topic.

chopinskate · Feb 1, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
Not really. I think we can all understand that there is genuine concern for safety of the kids who compete and the direction of the sport but I think it needs to be balanced out too. I mean...there aren’t rinks full of 22 year old women who can do seven triple programs who aren’t getting a chance to compete because of what’s happening in Russia right now. They might not be wining but they aren’t being left at home. It’s the younger kids that are being shut out so it’s not that surprising that they are the ones pushing the technical levels to stand out.

Yes, I get the concern. It's just a parody at this point, even weirder than the (formerly) tri-weekly pre-rotation discussions.

Mathman · Feb 1, 2019

I don't know. There have always been young prodigies, of whom some had long careers, others short. But this time it seems different.

These girls are out here doing quad Lutzes! Never mind ladies, how many 20-year old men can do it?.

Lota · Feb 1, 2019

Georgya said:
That is not true exactly. First, in gymnastics there are more apparatuses - more chances to medal. There are gymnasts like Sanne Wevers - 27 yo - who only does beam high level. Thats why you feel that when you hear that her or oksana chusovitina ( only does vault) 43 yo are winning medals you feel that more older gymnasts are winning. Imagine if carolina kostner would do only the artistic part or Tuk only jumping.

Oh, I'm not arguing that older gymnasts are winning, I'm just saying that the sport of gymnastics is kinder to aging women than figure skating. This is due to several circumstances, such as there being more events in gymnastics, as you said, the opportunity to just be an event specialist, as I said, and also the fact that national teams are bigger in gymnastics, so I guess it feels like you're seeing more gymnasts fighting for the chance to get to the event final and win those medals. So gymnastics definitely has an advantage over FS in that regard, thus it's not quite right to compare the two sports. Still, I feel like age is a smaller factor in gymnastics.

Georgya · Feb 1, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
Not really. I think we can all understand that there is genuine concern for safety of the kids who compete and the direction of the sport but I think it needs to be balanced out too. I mean...there aren’t rinks full of 22 year old women who can do seven triple programs who aren’t getting a chance to compete because of what’s happening in Russia right now. They might not be wining but they aren’t being left at home. It’s the younger kids that are being shut out so it’s not that surprising that they are the ones pushing the technical levels to stand out.

I think this post is very important to consider regarding age and major international competitions last year.

I honestly think people have a problem with younger kids winning as opposed to competing. The article did a terrible job of presenting an honest assessment and basically served as a rant IMO. It’s a reasonable topic but not like this. I take huge exception to the idea that Yulia was tossed out like a Kleenex and disappeared. That girl showed up despite her struggles and did two full seasons after Sochi and several smaller events. No one dropped her just because she wasn’t able to match the fire she had when making her several season impressive run up to the Olympics.

To address the author of this article I’ll say this. I’m 100% convinced that the main reason for short careers in Russia is the limiting of spots by nation. There just isn’t room for error in the Russian field. That’s probably the biggest source of pressure on these ladies. I’m not suggesting it needs to change either. I’m simply saying see it for what it is. The author didn’t even include it in the discussion and I find it telling about their sincerity and overall comprehension of the topic.

This:thumbsup:

Scott512 · Feb 1, 2019

chopinskate said:
Strange that this topic keeps popping up every week.

Gee I wonder why?

Funny how this has only been an issue with the media since February of 2014 when EG had her olympic coaching breakthrough and Russia had 15 and 17 year old girl gold medalists . It kind of makes you go hmmm. When Tara and Kwan were 15 and 17 in 98 at the winter games it was okay though.

Scott512 · Feb 1, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
Not really. I think we can all understand that there is genuine concern for safety of the kids who compete and the direction of the sport but I think it needs to be balanced out too. I mean...there aren’t rinks full of 22 year old women who can do seven triple programs who aren’t getting a chance to compete because of what’s happening in Russia right now. They might not be wining but they aren’t being left at home. It’s the younger kids that are being shut out so it’s not that surprising that they are the ones pushing the technical levels to stand out.

I think this post is very important to consider regarding age and major international competitions last year.

I honestly think people have a problem with younger kids winning as opposed to competing. The article did a terrible job of presenting an honest assessment and basically served as a rant IMO. It’s a reasonable topic but not like this. I take huge exception to the idea that Yulia was tossed out like a Kleenex and disappeared. That girl showed up despite her struggles and did two full seasons after Sochi and several smaller events. No one dropped her just because she wasn’t able to match the fire she had when making her several season impressive run up to the Olympics.

To address the author of this article I’ll say this. I’m 100% convinced that the main reason for short careers in Russia is the limiting of spots by nation. There just isn’t room for error in the Russian field. That’s probably the biggest source of pressure on these ladies. I’m not suggesting it needs to change either. I’m simply saying see it for what it is. The author didn’t even include it in the discussion and I find it telling about their sincerity and overall comprehension of the topic.

It needs to change Sam. But I wont hold my breath.

Good point about how a maximum of 3 spots plays a big role in why some girls step aside at a very young age. If there were more than 3 spots available it would be a different story. GPF and JGPF are merit based competitions and they are great. GPF for the ladies had only Russian and Japanese competitors. I like the merit based qualifications here. I wish there was a way to combine merit based qualification with automatic entry. That would work.

madison · Feb 1, 2019

Scott512 said:
Gee I wonder why?

Funny how this has only been an issue with the media since February of 2014 when EG had her olympic coaching breakthrough and Russia had 15 and 17 year old girl gold medalists . It kind of makes you go hmmm. When Tara and Kwan were 15 and 17 in 98 at the winter games it was okay though.

Because in Eteri's team is already a pattern this: young ladies burn out at an early age, although they want to continue. Yulia wanted to continue, she couldnt and therefore she ended with an eating disorder. Evgenia wants to continue but she has injuries. Alina wants to continue but her state is not good. Daria Panenkova wants to continue and she was really consistent 2 seasons in a row and during the summer suddenly we were told (by Daniil) that she doesnt want to train anymore. Probably Polina Sh wanted to continue as well.
I mean it is obvious that something happens in that team, something that is not healthy for the skaters. Their technique is not strong enough to carry them during puberty, and Eteri's mental games doesnt help either.

Female Russian skate stars rise fast, but burn out too soon

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