Female Russian skate stars rise fast, but burn out too soon

Scott512 · Feb 1, 2019

madison said:
Because in Eteri's team is already a pattern this: young ladies burn out at an early age, although they want to continue. Yulia wanted to continue, she couldnt and therefore she ended with an eating disorder. Evgenia wants to continue but she has injuries. Alina wants to continue but her state is not good. Daria Panenkova wants to continue and she was really consistent 2 seasons in a row and during the summer suddenly we were told (by Daniil) that she doesnt want to train anymore. Probably Polina Sh wanted to continue as well.
I mean it is obvious that something happens in that team, something that is not healthy for the skaters. Their technique is not strong enough to carry them during puberty, and Eteri's mental games doesnt help either.

Yulia left Eteri for Urmanov. Can't blame one person for Yulias issues. Sad she had to retire. Seeing Gracie and Gabby having issues is sad and alarming. This is a sport and life that is very tough on skaters both physically and mentally. I hope more can be done in the future to prevent such issues as Yulias Gracie's and Gabby's.

We will see with Alina. This has been a season of adjustment for her. I commend Alina for continuing and fighting through struggles. Hope she stops growing soon. That will help.

madison · Feb 1, 2019

Scott512 said:
Yulia left Eteri for Urmanov. Can't blame one person for Yulias issues. Sad she had to retire. Seeing Gracie and Gabby having issues is sad and alarming. This is a sport and life that is very tough on skaters both physically and mentally. I hope more can be done in the future to prevent such issues as Yulias Gracie's and Gabby's.

We will see with Alina. This has been a season of adjustment for her. I commend Alina for continuing and fighting through struggles. Hope she stops growing soon. That will help.

Yulia's problems began before moving to Urmanov, when she was with Tutberidze.

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 1, 2019

madison said:
Yulia's problems began before moving to Urmanov, when she was with Tutberidze.

Yulia never blamed anyone for her disorder. Although it was probably several reasons she seemed to steer clear of blaming any one. I was really proud of how she handled it and has handled herself since. There are lots of people who go thru this in silence and I hope she gave some of them a voice.

Eteri has never publicly addressed it so we don’t know how it effected her or her coaching since. Maybe out of respect or maybe out of guilt she’s avoiding the topic. We just don’t know.

Often times eating disorders are a direct result of parent and child relationships....especially in women. Eteri methods may have contributed but it may have come from a different source. A source that may have manifested in Yulia regardless who her coach was. Some people are just more susceptible. We just don’t know really and I think that’s fine. Some things are too personal for the public.

andromache · Feb 1, 2019

Scott512 said:
Gee I wonder why?

Funny how this has only been an issue with the media since February of 2014 when EG had her olympic coaching breakthrough and Russia had 15 and 17 year old girl gold medalists . It kind of makes you go hmmm. When Tara and Kwan were 15 and 17 in 98 at the winter games it was okay though.

In all fairness, people in '98 WERE unhappy with a 15 year old contending for (and winning) OGM. Many of them were American or at least worked in the American skating system (thinking of Carlo Fassi here).

Kwan went on to compete for over another Olympic quad. Her career didn't end at 17.

This comparison doesn't really work.

madison · Feb 1, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
Yulia never blamed anyone for her disorder. Although it was probably several reasons she seemed to steer clear of blaming any one. I was really proud of how she handled it and has handled herself since. There are lots of people who go thru this in silence and I hope she gave some of them a voice.

Eteri has never publicly addressed it so we don’t know how it effected her or her coaching since. Maybe out of respect or maybe out of guilt she’s avoiding the topic. We just don’t know.

Often times eating disorders are a direct result of parent and child relationships....especially in women. Eteri methods may have contributed but it may have come from a different source. A source that may have manifested in Yulia regardless who her coach was. Some people are just more susceptible. We just don’t know really and I think that’s fine. Some things are too personal for the public.

Actually, i was talking about Yulia's skating problems, the decline began the season after Sochi when she was still with Eteri. It was obvious from the K&C, how sad she was . I think that her skating problems generated or contributed in a big scale to all the other problems (but this is just my opinion).

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 1, 2019

andromache said:
In all fairness, people in '98 WERE unhappy with a 15 year old contending for (and winning) OGM. Many of them were American or at least worked in the American skating system (thinking of Carlo Fassi here).

Kwan went on to compete for over another Olympic quad. Her career didn't end at 17.

This comparison doesn't really work.

Do you have links to news stories or other media showing concern when Michelle, Tara, or Sasha we’re competing at young ages? That might clear this up and I’d really be interested in reading those as a comparison. I think that’s what was being referenced.

The way I remember it was mostveveryone just being really excited for baby Sasha. She brought me into the sport and I swear she was showered with praise and hope from the media much like Alysa is deservedly being done the same.

I think the point was “where was the media” as opposed to where were the “fans”. I really would find it fascinating reading some news from that time with a similar concern.

moonvine · Feb 1, 2019

andromache said:
Is this actually the case in gymnastics? I don't follow gymnastics, but I am aware of Simone Biles and Aly Raisman having fairly lengthy and successful careers well after puberty.

It is getting better in gymnastics. I credit the age rule, which folks in figure skating don't seem to want. Aly went to 2 Olympics and won medals (team and individual) at each. Simone will almost certainly go to 2 Olympics, barring something catastrophic. Gabby went to 2 Olympics and won team medals at each, and individual gold at one. In fact the last US Gymnastics Olympic team only had 2 ladies who had not been to an Olympics before. This would have been unheard of 10 years ago. There is one bada** named Oksana Chusovitina who is still competing and winning world medals. But she competes only on vault. Also, if you stay amateur there is then college gymnastics.

https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a37982/svetlana-boginskaya-41-year-old-gymnast/

It's extremely unfair, but male gymnasts last considerably longer than female gymnasts do. We had a 30 year old male gymnast on the last US Olympic team.

el henry · Feb 1, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
Do you have links to news stories or other media showing concern when Michelle, Tara, or Sasha we’re competing at young ages? That might clear this up and I’d really be interested in reading those as a comparison. I think that’s what was being referenced.

The way I remember it was mostveveryone just being really excited for baby Sasha. She brought me into the sport and I swear she was showered with praise and hope from the media much like Alysa is deservedly being done the same.

I think the point was “where was the media” as opposed to where were the “fans”. I really would find it fascinating reading some news from that time with a similar concern.

Sam, this is an honest question: will that truly “clear it up”?

I remember reading words to the effect that “posters” don’t care about jumps or young athletes or quads when it’s Americans, they only care when it’s Russians or some other country, “posters” are biased. (I’m not saying *you*, just in general).

When I pointed out that this simply wasn’t true, that at least one (admittedly not the smartest :biggrin:

) poster has been consistent over five years in this concern regardless of the country or gender of the skater, what was the response :shrug:

Crickets. No acknowledgment that this was a true statement. Except from some kind folks who agreed with me and actually remembered my wingèd words.

. ETA: but nothing from folks who were insisting that bias was at work.

So I don’t want to do the work if it’s not going to have an effect

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 1, 2019

el henry said:
Sam, this is an honest question: will that truly “clear it up”?

I remember reading words to the effect that “posters” don’t care about jumps or young athletes or quads when it’s Americans, they only care when it’s Russians or some other country, “posters” are biased. (I’m not saying *you*, just in general).

When I pointed out that this simply wasn’t true, that at least one (admittedly not the smartest ) poster has been consistent over five years in this concern regardless of the country or gender of the skater, what was the response

Crickets. No acknowledgment that this was a true statement. Except from some kind folks who agreed with me and actually remembered my wingèd words. . ETA: but nothing from folks who were insisting that bias was at work.

So I don’t want to do the work if it’s not going to have an effect

I can’t speak for others but I would sincerely be fascinated. I figured since Andromache was refuting the claims and seemed to imply that the media was concerned and reporting on these concerns in 98 she likely knew where to look or could hint at where to start looking. Although...maybe it all went the way of Netscape Navigator and shall never be seen again :laugh:

skatesofgold · Feb 1, 2019

beachmouse said:
There's a lot of crashing and burning at age 14-15 in the US system, and a number of athletes decide at that point to dial it back and aim for an NCAA university scholarship at that point in the name of preserving their joy in the sport rather than trying to an international team spot.

Even before the Nassar problem came to light, USA Gymnastics had the talent pool depth to run their programs as meat grinder/treat girls like kleenex, and I've rather spent most of the 21st century cheering against the American female gymnasts in favor of the Russian and Romanian systems that seemed to put more effort into keeping promising athletes healthier and more engaged in the sport and didn't see them as mere parts that could easily be replaced in the machine like the US girls so often seemed to be.

With skating I just can't find myself really caring about a girl until her second senior season. Even Elaine Zayak, one of the prototypes for the modern jumping bean figure skaters, managed two good world championship podium seasons.

Some of the best Romanian and Russian gymnasts have suffered injuries, too. There’s this misconception that American gymnasts are injured more, but that’s not true.

skatesofgold · Feb 1, 2019

moonvine said:
It is getting better in gymnastics. I credit the age rule, which folks in figure skating don't seem to want. Aly went to 2 Olympics and won medals (team and individual) at each. Simone will almost certainly go to 2 Olympics, barring something catastrophic. Gabby went to 2 Olympics and won team medals at each, and individual gold at one. In fact the last US Gymnastics Olympic team only had 2 ladies who had not been to an Olympics before. This would have been unheard of 10 years ago. There is one bada** named Oksana Chusovitina who is still competing and winning world medals. But she competes only on vault. Also, if you stay amateur there is then college gymnastics.

https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a37982/svetlana-boginskaya-41-year-old-gymnast/

It's extremely unfair, but male gymnasts last considerably longer than female gymnasts do. We had a 30 year old male gymnast on the last US Olympic team.

Gymnastics and figure skating essentially have the same age limit. Kyla Ross was 15 turning 16 at the 2012 Olympics, and the age limit hasn’t changed since 1997.

andromache · Feb 1, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
Do you have links to news stories or other media showing concern when Michelle, Tara, or Sasha we’re competing at young ages? That might clear this up and I’d really be interested in reading those as a comparison. I think that’s what was being referenced.

The way I remember it was mostveveryone just being really excited for baby Sasha. She brought me into the sport and I swear she was showered with praise and hope from the media much like Alysa is deservedly being done the same.

I think the point was “where was the media” as opposed to where were the “fans”. I really would find it fascinating reading some news from that time with a similar concern.

The book "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" (published in 1995) was EXTREMELY critical of allowing young girls to compete in gymnastics and figure skating. Overall it is more of a condemnation of the cultures of those sports than it is about allowing specific young girls to compete, but did call for raising minimum age requirements and requiring athletes to stay in regular schools until turned 16.

I will be 100% honest and say I have not read this book entirely, but it got a lot of attention and has been republished with updates several times.

Per the book's Wikipedia page, "Bela Karolyi was singled out for particular criticism in the book, for his influence on USA Gymnastics (USAG), which resulted in what she called "'a system of abuse'" - and hey, look at Larry Nassar.

I can't dig up any random articles from the 90s about Tara, Michelle, or Sasha, but I would be shocked if they didn't exist. I will also note that at that time, there was no pattern in the US of female skaters peaking pre-puberty and then being pushed out of the sport, other than a single instance with Tara. Michelle and Sasha both competed into their 20s.

moonvine · Feb 1, 2019

beachmouse said:
There's a lot of crashing and burning at age 14-15 in the US system, and a number of athletes decide at that point to dial it back and aim for an NCAA university scholarship at that point in the name of preserving their joy in the sport rather than trying to an international team spot.

You are so right there, and a former level 10 gymnast can shine in NCAA's. I remember an interview with Alex McMurtry, 2017 All Around NCAA champion, saying something like "I couldn't believe it, to my right and left there were Olympic and World medalists and here I am in the middle (on the top of the podium." There are also ladies who are doing double duty and competing in NCAAs and Elite at the same time, but that's quite uncommon.

Even Mirai said she thought there should be collegiate figure skating "like gymnastics" (I realize it exists now but not in the same format). We both like UCLA's dance! I realize it would be expensive, but perhaps not more so than equestrian, which more and more schools are adding as a scholarship sport. My alma mater did not have equestrian at all when I was there, but they do now. If I could turn back time! I'd think it would be more concentrated in the northern us, where colleges have hockey teams, but even my alma mater in the deep, deep South has a hockey team - they do have to drive an hour to practice. I remember when I was in school an eon ago, and I would go to watch the gymnastics meets, and there was hardly anyone there and they had a black curtain hung up over part of the arena so you couldn't tell how few people were there. Now they are drawing in excess of 10k every Friday night, and there are fireworks and all kinds of stuff, the gymnasts just love it. I'm not sure Nathan Chen and Jason Brown drew 10k spectators. The rink was at least half empty, but I'm not sure how many it holds to begin with.

Scott512 · Feb 1, 2019

madison said:
Because in Eteri's team is already a pattern this: young ladies burn out at an early age, although they want to continue. Yulia wanted to continue, she couldnt and therefore she ended with an eating disorder. Evgenia wants to continue but she has injuries. Alina wants to continue but her state is not good. Daria Panenkova wants to continue and she was really consistent 2 seasons in a row and during the summer suddenly we were told (by Daniil) that she doesnt want to train anymore. Probably Polina Sh wanted to continue as well.
I mean it is obvious that something happens in that team, something that is not healthy for the skaters. Their technique is not strong enough to carry them during puberty, and Eteri's mental games doesnt help either.

Hope the next generation will be better as adults. Thats all we can do. Some will make it most wont with any coach Thats sports.

ladyjane · Feb 1, 2019

I suppose, quite apart from the whole issue of dumping skaters, I like watching little girls/boys doing their thing: jumps and all. But in juniors. In seniors I just wish to see good skating (skills), lovely programmes, etc, and yes of course good quality jumps as well. And, important to me, I like to follow skaters through time. So. sadly I don't like the burning out of stars too soon. I didn't like it when Oksana quit straight after the Olympics in 1994 (Nancy quit too, but she had been present for a longer time), Tara quit immediately after the Olympics in 1998 and I admired Sara when she came back in 2003 (though not succesfully). What I'm trying to get across, is that this isn't a Russian thing at all, this is just about what we wish FS to be. it's not even just a ladies thing. The same applied to Illya Kullik whom I would have loved to watch after 1998. Alas, he retired. His choice, but still.

Going to Eteri, I think she doesn't want to 'dump' anyone. She just doesn't know how to handle these puberty issues. Wrong? Mental games? I don't know. She seems pretty caring to her skaters to me, But then, who am I in this debate? An adult skater at the age of 52 who can only do single jumps (some days). Hahaha. What do I know about handling these young girls whom I love to watch. Just not at a senior worlds please. Stick to the age minimums. I've already stopped watching gymnastics for ladies (ahem, little girls). I wish to see women, not girls at such events. They don't have to be in their thirties (thank the Goddess, there's pairs for that) but definitely women. That's all.

Mathman · Feb 1, 2019

andromache said:
The book "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" (published in 1995) was EXTREMELY critical of allowing young girls to compete in gymnastics and figure skating. Overall it is more of a condemnation of the cultures of those sports than it is about allowing specific young girls to compete, but did call for raising minimum age requirements and requiring athletes to stay in regular schools until turned 16. ...

This was a different kind of criticism of figure skating culture, though. The main thrust of those books is that we should not dress little girls up like prostitutes, train them to do as they are told no matter what and shut up about it, and then send them out to "entertain" adults. When we give them a gold medal, what are we teaching them?

The best book of that era (neo-post-feminism?) was "Culture on Ice" by Ellyn Kestnbaum.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41M0XZZ23AL._SX315_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Michelle Kwan was a 14-year-old jumping bean. "They" (the figure skating establishment) told her pretty much point blank that if she wanted to get anywhere in the sport she would have to wear thicker make-up (Michelle's parents did not approve) and to present more "mature" themes. The next year (age 15) she portrayed the teenage seductress Salome and won the world championship.

(In fact, Michelle credits Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul with teaching her how to do make-up when they toured together on COI.)

To tell the truth, the current argument, focussing more on whether too much jumping can cause injuries and shorten careers, is something quite different. I think that we -- fans, media, skating insiders of all nations -- have always encouraged young technical wunderkinder. Nathan Chen was already in the spotlight at ten years old. Look at him now!

Scott512 · Feb 1, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
Yulia never blamed anyone for her disorder. Although it was probably several reasons she seemed to steer clear of blaming any one. I was really proud of how she handled it and has handled herself since. There are lots of people who go thru this in silence and I hope she gave some of them a voice.

Eteri has never publicly addressed it so we don’t know how it effected her or her coaching since. Maybe out of respect or maybe out of guilt she’s avoiding the topic. We just don’t know.

Often times eating disorders are a direct result of parent and child relationships....especially in women. Eteri methods may have contributed but it may have come from a different source. A source that may have manifested in Yulia regardless who her coach was. Some people are just more susceptible. We just don’t know really and I think that’s fine. Some things are too personal for the public.

Well said Sam. Very fair to all. We will never know about Yulia and why she suffered with her eating disorder. She is total class for not blaming anyone and dealing with her issues. Yulia is amazing and great example for others any age.

Scott512 · Feb 1, 2019

andromache said:
In all fairness, people in '98 WERE unhappy with a 15 year old contending for (and winning) OGM. Many of them were American or at least worked in the American skating system (thinking of Carlo Fassi here).

Kwan went on to compete for over another Olympic quad. Her career didn't end at 17.

This comparison doesn't really work.

I recall people being amazed at Tara and Michelle. I was. Thank God they didnt have the internet then.

el henry · Feb 1, 2019

Yes, American media advocates for limits on the age of young athletes.

Yes, American media advocates for such limits even when American athletes are impacted.

Yes, they did so in 1998.

Michael Wilbon saying the age for skating should be increased to 17, the year that Tara Lipinski win OGM

(It's parenthetical, but it's there. And is "Pardon the Interruption" still on ESPN or some other channel somewhere? and unfortunately the line about Tiger Woods handling fame with grace was not entirely prescient.....)

For me, it matters less if the reasons for concern are the pitfalls of fame and fortune, the over sexualization of young girls, or the injuries incurred by young athletes. There is concern. It is not limited to one country, one gender or one anything.

Anyone can and should feel free to disagree that the concern is warranted. I would just like the happy hoo-hah that the concern results from bias, jealousy, and the million outraged "whataboutism"s to stop. :bang:

But who am I kidding?

hippomoomin · Feb 1, 2019

Raising the age limit may not be even good for practical reasons: Many young skaters will be choosing between full time college students vs. skating in full capacity (with the exception of a few) around 18. If they are not even allowed to compete on the senior level yet at that time, it would make their choice much harder.

Female Russian skate stars rise fast, but burn out too soon

Scott512

madison

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

andromache

madison

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

skatesofgold

skatesofgold

andromache

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

Scott512

ladyjane

Mathman

Scott512

Scott512

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

hippomoomin

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