2019 4CCs: Pairs FS | Page 2 | Golden Skate

2019 4CCs: Pairs FS

Bcash

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
+100000. That character step :drama: I find them more engaging than a good 95% of the dance field even without the pairs elements.

I was just saying the other day that their hands (esp. Sui) are more expressive and articulate than many of the Ice Dancers. This is also a quality that someone like Nathan Chen dearly needs.
 

oly2018

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
I was just saying the other day that their hands (esp. Sui) are more expressive and articulate than many of the Ice Dancers. This is also a quality that someone like Nathan Chen dearly needs.

The unfortunate (or maybe not?) thing, is what they have definitely can't be taught. I find them more engaging than most of the ice dance pairs too, but S/H happen to be one of the best matches out there in figure skating at the moment. Physically and emotionally. I don't think they would be half as incredible if they weren't partners and the same can't be said for much of the ice dance field. Some people just get lucky :)
 

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
Well, the division between the two flights in that event was pretty obvious. The first was really, really rough, everybody had a lot of trouble, though Denney/Frazier were the class of the field despite the multiple pops. The second, while not error-free, were all very strong.

As far as the overall ordinals go, I'm fine with how things worked out. Any time you have a knife's edge result like that, it's ultimately down to the tiniest decisions of the judges.

I'm sad for Evelyn and Trennt, who had two really good events in the row with Skate Canada International and Canadian Nationals, and their free program got off to such a good start, and then that aborted lift just killed the whole program.

Ashley and Tim's storybook comeback continues (okay, in the storybook they'd have won gold here, but whatever). Really impressive what they've been able to do in the last few weeks, and no question now that they're the right people to go to Saitama.

The triple Salchow tripped up both Cheng and Wenjing, but otherwise both the Chinese teams delivered strongly. Sui/Han are just knocking the rust off, but you can see that that free program will be a masterpiece if they can do it cleanly at Worlds. By the same token, the side-by-side jumps are clearly their big vulnerability as a team, and if they lose to James/Cipres at Worlds, that'll be why, because those two have been very solid on the jumps all season.

If you have told me that Kirsten and Michael would come within a fraction of a point of beating Sui and Han going into this, I wouldn't have believed you, but they delivered their best ever here, even with the struggle on their second lift.

Finally, the scoring at this event was noticeably lower than at, say, the European Championships or the Grand Prix. James/Cipres and Tarasova/Morozov have both gotten to 140+ with errors in the free akin to the one Sui/Han had here.
 

solar

I got cat class and I got cat style
Medalist
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Feb 10, 2014
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Anyone know why S/H ditched the 4Tw in the free skate and just did a 3? Are they working up to the quad twist?
 

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
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Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
Anyone know why S/H ditched the 4Tw in the free skate and just did a 3? Are they working up to the quad twist?
The base value changes under the new scoring system and the +5/-5 GOE have diminished the value of the throw/twist quads in pairs to the point where teams aren't attempting them now. It makes more sense to just aim to max out the triple.

Now, it may be that Sui/Han are planning to reintroduce the quad twist later once they've found their footing more.
 

solar

I got cat class and I got cat style
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Joined
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Country
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The base value changes under the new scoring system and the +5/-5 GOE have diminished the value of the throw/twist quads in pairs to the point where teams aren't attempting them now. It makes more sense to just aim to max out the triple.

Now, it may be that Sui/Han are planning to reintroduce the quad twist later once they've found their footing more.

Darn, I loved the 4Tw - another unique element that set them apart. I didn't realize how much the new scoring system changed, I'm still learning new things! I can't calculate what would give them more points, but I'd love for the quad twist to come back at some point :)
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
To be honest, it would be nice to see a triple twist of Aljona and Bruno's calibre, let alone a well executed quad version. I love those soaring ones! I believe only Evghenia and Vladimir have come close (and they also are quite capable of a quad) this season, but so far - at least in my view - such a level is sorely lacking this year. Let's get a few of those back, and then go on building up the Quads again!
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Mar 14, 2007
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USA has 3 pairs at this event, can't even land on the podium, and some folks think we have a chance at top 10 at Worlds with even more good pairs there...I have to disagree. Very discouraging for the US.
 

lichi

sui holding a deep edge
On the Ice
Joined
Apr 24, 2018
USA has 3 pairs at this event, can't even land on the podium, and some folks think we have a chance at top 10 at Worlds with even more good pairs there...I have to disagree. Very discouraging for the US.

I think they do have a good chance though. Comparing 4CC and Euros results, the US teams would've had prob 8-9 best scores.
 

oly2018

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
USA has 3 pairs at this event, can't even land on the podium, and some folks think we have a chance at top 10 at Worlds with even more good pairs there...I have to disagree. Very discouraging for the US.

IDK, sure this wasn't the greatest showing, but C/L put out a solid performance. I think F/D were pretty decent minus the jumps. I still think top 10 is possible if Ashley and Tim have very very few mistakes. If you look at it, there are 2 Chinese teams, possibly a Canadian team, the French, 2 or 3 Russian teams, and the Italians who are likely to place above them if clean. That leaves C/L some room to finish top 10.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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IDK, sure this wasn't the greatest showing, but C/L put out a solid performance. I think F/D were pretty decent minus the jumps. I still think top 10 is possible if Ashley and Tim have very very few mistakes. If you look at it, there are 2 Chinese teams, possibly a Canadian team, the French, 2 or 3 Russian teams, and the Italians who are likely to place above them if clean. That leaves C/L some room to finish top 10.

This was their season's best and they were beaten by a Canadian team. And the "if clean" ...well...we'll see. Who is the 3rd Chinese team? Or are they only sending 2?
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Well the difference in fs score was only 0.6 which Sui/Han won because of their higher pcs. The Canadian team program was not artistically brilliant compared to S/H. Their choreography and music was pretty bland.

Excuse me, but who doesn't like Pink Floyd music? Bland? I think not! Love MT/ M, should be gold
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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I think Ashley and Tim have a shot at Worlds top ten and certainly the best shot of any of the US teams.

Deanna was great when she pointed out ETA. [at US Nats presser] that there are only two Chinese teams at Worlds, so “let’s be real guys”, this is the year to do it. Two Chinese, one French, some Russians, a Canadian team, the Italians. And yes, Ashley and Tim need to be clean-ish, but we’re assuming none of those teams make errors either.

In any event, great fight by Ashley and Tim here:hap10:
 
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Colonel Green

Record Breaker
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Canada
This was their season's best and they were beaten by a Canadian team. And the "if clean" ...well...we'll see. Who is the 3rd Chinese team? Or are they only sending 2?
China only has two spots at Worlds this year; they lost the third in Milan without Sui/Han. I expect they'll get it back without trouble in Saitama, though they've only got two teams skating senior internationally this season anyway.

Anyway, as far as Top 10 at Worlds goes:

3 Russian teams + 2 Chinese teams + James/Cipres + Della Monica/Guarise + Moore-Towers/Marinaro = 8 spots. Plenty of room for Cain/LeDuc in the top ten even if they're behind all of those. And Cain/LeDuc's personal bests are competitive with Pavliuchenko/Khodykin this season, if they end up being one of the three Russian teams (nobody knows what's up with Zabiyako/Enbert), so it's not a foregone conclusion that the USA would be behind all three anyway.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
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Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
USA has 3 pairs at this event, can't even land on the podium, and some folks think we have a chance at top 10 at Worlds with even more good pairs there...I have to disagree. Very discouraging for the US.

Why are you so negative about them? I thought C/L did a good job, pretty close to the top 3 in points, while yes the other two teams were less good but I didn't expect them to suddenly medal. I think you do have a chance at the top 10 with Ashley and Tim. Don't forget: contrary to last year quite a few American teams managed to get a medal at the Grand Prix events this season, and even better at Challengers. Not enough to reach the final, but then neither did Kirstin and Michael who got a silver here. As long as you're not expecting them to podium at worlds, I think Ashley and Tim could very well get those two spots back. D****n, I wish our country had the level of teams the Americans have. So no, not discouraging at all for the US. Well done in this field. And isn't it just great that the winner of Nationals also is by far the best of them in this competition?
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
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Mar 14, 2007
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Why are you so negative about them? I thought C/L did a good job, pretty close to the top 3 in points, while yes the other two teams were less good but I didn't expect them to suddenly medal. I think you do have a chance at the top 10 with Ashley and Tim. Don't forget: contrary to last year quite a few American teams managed to get a medal at the Grand Prix events this season, and even better at Challengers. Not enough to reach the final, but then neither did Kirstin and Michael who got a silver here. As long as you're not expecting them to podium at worlds, I think Ashley and Tim could very well get those two spots back. D****n, I wish our country had the level of teams the Americans have. So no, not discouraging at all for the US. Well done in this field. And isn't it just great that the winner of Nationals also is by far the best of them in this competition?

I guess I see it as realistic. Sorry you see it as negative. And yes, it is good the winner of Nationals was the best in this competition.:biggrin: Really IMHO all the US needs is a breakout team, like what Belbin/Agosto were for ice dance. Look at the US ice dance success before and after Belbin/Agosto. Will it be Ashley and Tim? Let's hope so.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
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Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
I guess I see it as realistic. Sorry you see it as negative. And yes, it is good the winner of Nationals was the best in this competition.:biggrin: Really IMHO all the US needs is a breakout team, like what Belbin/Agosto were for ice dance. Look at the US ice dance success before and after Belbin/Agosto. Will it be Ashley and Tim? Let's hope so.

Haha...totally with you on this one!
 

slider11

Medalist
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Oddly the lift got everything from -5 (way too harsh) to +3 (too generous), but yeah that was the decider. I also thought Sui's 3S was <<, but it was a far camera shot and the tech panel probably had the best angle for deciding that.

As you note, I found the judging with pairs to really swing wildly. I realize a judge's mark can initially be scored based on his/her position on the panel but I thought if there was any issue that replay would give the judge a chance to view and adjust a mark. Must have been an interesting discussion in the post-game room.
 
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