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2019 4CCs: Men's FS
- Thread starter gsk8
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"Seems popular to hate on Vincent - though guess this isn't new. Last Worlds he went from mostly under the radar to the subject of some rather intense hate after the SP."
I'm honestly baffled by this because it seemingly came out of nowhere. Do you have any idea why? He's barely 18 years old, only in his second international senior season, putting it all out there and pretty obviously working hard to improve. And he seems like such a sweet kid with his heart on his sleeve and genuinely kind too (see Nationals carpet debacle for one example). And it's not like he's the only UR'ing skater out there and he's usually pretty severely penalized for it, so I don't know why so many skating fans take it so personally. I just cannot fathom how Jason Brown gets all the love for finally throwing down a single underrotated quad in competition well into his 20s but Vincent should just give it up now because he's never going to make it. I don't know whose puppy he kicked, but it's just crazy to me. I hope he doesn't read the venom and trash spewed toward him on social media. It's really heartbreaking to think about him reading this stuff. And he gets more hate than anyone I can think of recently, at least in the couple online communities I frequent.
I'm honestly baffled by this because it seemingly came out of nowhere. Do you have any idea why? He's barely 18 years old, only in his second international senior season, putting it all out there and pretty obviously working hard to improve. And he seems like such a sweet kid with his heart on his sleeve and genuinely kind too (see Nationals carpet debacle for one example). And it's not like he's the only UR'ing skater out there and he's usually pretty severely penalized for it, so I don't know why so many skating fans take it so personally. I just cannot fathom how Jason Brown gets all the love for finally throwing down a single underrotated quad in competition well into his 20s but Vincent should just give it up now because he's never going to make it. I don't know whose puppy he kicked, but it's just crazy to me. I hope he doesn't read the venom and trash spewed toward him on social media. It's really heartbreaking to think about him reading this stuff. And he gets more hate than anyone I can think of recently, at least in the couple online communities I frequent.
I've done a rough estimate (assuming everyone skates clean) and trust me, it is very beatable, by Yuzu for sure (even without 4Lo and not even counting his hypothetical SP score) and by Shoma too, if he adds the 4S back in and has a stellar performance. Add to that the fact that Worlds takes place in Japan this season... no idea why everyone thinks Nathan would be the clear favourite. :noshake:
To be fair though, in Vincent's case, after having gotten multiple UR calls at each and every competition that he has competed in this season (not even gonna talk about past seasons) and also as recent as two weeks ago at US Nats, he and his team should be sceptical of the results in this supposedly clean SP, a mere two weeks after his not-so-clean skate at Nationals (where everyone expects judging to be more generous, and yet he still got many URs).
Given these circumstances, what's the likelihood of him having magically corrected his jumping technique in such a short amount of time and having actually skated this clean?
Instead my impression was that after the SP, they decided that 'all the hard work' has finally paid off and Tom immediately jumped at the chance to tout Vincent as the new emerging threat to the big guns in the sport, rivalling the likes of Yuzu, Shoma and Nathan. Tom sure seemed very eager to me.
I just don't get their mindset in this.
I haven't seen anyone say that he should quit?
People are mostly questioning Vincent's/his team’s choices in terms of jump layouts and the general focus on difficult jumps for the past seasons.
For me there's also a difference between a skater sometimes having one UR in a program and someone collecting several ones on a regular basis.
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Agree. Well said. And all of this couldn't have happened to a sweeter kid. I think your point about Jason is relevant. From reading the complaints about Vincent in GS for the past months up to a year, many of them seem to come from Jason fans who feel threatened by Vincent's doing so well, choosing to do the quads he's capable of now, and possibly finishing ahead of Jason. I don't get it; I love them both. To me, they're both spectacular skaters with styles and strengths that are poles apart. I don't know why both styles and strengths shouldn't be celebrated, applauded and rewarded.
.... after the SP, they decided that 'all the hard work' has finally paid off and Tom immediately jumped at the chance to tout Vincent as the new emerging threat to the big guns in the sport, rivalling the likes of Yuzu, Shoma and Nathan. Tom sure seemed very eager to me.
I just don't get their mindset in this.
That's just Tom, IMO. And Vincent gets all the hate slung out at him, when he can hardly be expected to control his coach's behavior.
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I don't get the hate either. Naturally, I'm okay with criticism regarding the UR's (haha, which I only see when they're pointed out to me), but spewing venom at a young man (a boy really) is rather low. But then a lot of young skating girls get venom spewed at them too, which is just as bad. And all done by supposed fans. You don't need enemies with fans like these. I liked watching Vincent skate, he was very much into the programme. So, there were UR's and that shows in his points. Didn't detract from my enjoyment to be honest. And, by the way, it wasn't Vincent himself who awarded him the points in SP. So, why the hate towards a kind and gentle boy?
I find Vincent Zhou to be supremely pretentious (still eyerolling at his godawful USA Today and Medium interviews), a terrible writer to boot (those purple-prose laden Instagram posts...), and politically ignorant (talking about consciously not voting like that's something to be proud of), but to each their own. The latter two points don't have any to do with his skating, but might explain why he as a person rubs people the wrong way.
Receiving some constructive criticism might do wonders for Zhou's ego and bring him down to Earth a bit.
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How does calling out Zhou's URs equal hate lmao
It's like those clickbait titles on YT. "My uber driver tried to kidnap me" = GPS wasn't working, took them to the wrong place.
It's like those clickbait titles on YT. "My uber driver tried to kidnap me" = GPS wasn't working, took them to the wrong place.
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I don’t think it’s popular to “hate” on Vincent
Vincent URs his quad jumps. A lot of them. I don’t think Vincent gets hammered more by judges on URs than any other skater who does so, and I don’t think persons criticize Vincent for this problem any more than they criticize anyone else.
And I think it is unfair to call that criticism “hate”.
Jason hasn’t landed a quad in a competition. It is not hate to point that out. Every Jason fan knows it and we know he’s working on it and.... not yet. ETA: but if someone pointed that out, why would I call it “hate”?
Now the conclusions to be drawn from that fact are something else
ETA: and the love that Jason gets is not related to his ETA: 4CC quad attempt jumps.
Vincent URs his quad jumps. A lot of them. I don’t think Vincent gets hammered more by judges on URs than any other skater who does so, and I don’t think persons criticize Vincent for this problem any more than they criticize anyone else.
And I think it is unfair to call that criticism “hate”.
Jason hasn’t landed a quad in a competition. It is not hate to point that out. Every Jason fan knows it and we know he’s working on it and.... not yet. ETA: but if someone pointed that out, why would I call it “hate”?
Now the conclusions to be drawn from that fact are something else
ETA: and the love that Jason gets is not related to his ETA: 4CC quad attempt jumps.
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I would say posts like yours don’t help. It’s one thing to say that you don’t understand why Vincent isn’t appreciated as much you think he should be, or that you think he’s criticized too harshly. But bringing up Jason unnecessarily and making negative comparisons with Vincent perpetuates the idea that it’s okay to diss skaters you don’t particularly like - exactly what you’re protesting in Vincent’s case. Jason has had more than his share of criticism over the past few years for his lack of quads and wonky 3As, not to mention his behavior in the knc. It’s nice that you want to support Vincent, but no need to use it as an opportunity to sling barbs at Jason or other skaters.
@skylark - as a Jason fan, I don’t really appreciate your comments about Jason fans - and given that you’ve visited his fan thread and called yourself a Jason fan, too, I find it a little perplexing. Finger pointing, whether it’s at another skater or at fans of other skaters, is really not productive and tends to perpetuate bad feeling.
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BTW gsk8, Uno stepped out on a 3A-1Eu-3F. He didn't attempt a 3A-1Eu-3T.
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I am not convinced.
I am a fan of Tomoki. Am always happy for him to do well, and certainly do not wish for him to be criticized.
I do not claim to have seen every comment under the sun about Tomoki, but my general sense is that his URs do not stir up an outpouring of criticism.
(Examples that I have in mind: Four URs in JGPF FS. Three total at Four Continents.)
I am a fan of Jason. No question that Jason has had criticism over the past few years.
Meanwhile, the "more than his share" thing is subjective.
And I do not agree with the characterization of Jsnb's post as dissing Jason or slinging barbs at Jason.
I couldn't agree with you more.
(His posts after Denis' death were also quite...something)
Now all of this is of course irrelevant when it comes to his skating, as you already pointed out.
For me there's nothing enjoyable about his skating, a lot of it has to do with his body language, so his frequent URs are the least of my problems with him. But that's subjective of course. However, when his score beats that of skaters who seem more deserving because their technical elements were better executed, obviously such an unfairness will provoke a reaction from people.
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It's probably not as true here, but elsewhere on the internet much of the hate on Vincent gets has a lot to do with his personal beliefs and some of the things he's said in the past (and present). Even yesterday at the 4CC presscon some of the things he said people weren't fans of. But not to get into it here, but it's crossed over into hating his skating and wishing that he wouldn't do well. This has nothing to do with Jason or Jason fans at all. And Jason has gotten his fair share of hate. As has every other skater. Vincent is not special in this regard.
And his skating is just not appealing for some people. It's unfortunate that Vincent doesn't really have a strength you can point to that makes him stand out. He's not super artistic or with great spins or footwork or SS and he does not have amazing technique or jumps either. So he's kind of middle of the road for a lot of people and there are other skaters people end up rooting for over him.
And it's not hate to point out he UR his jumps. He does and Tom Z should stop comparing him to a ballerina.
And his skating is just not appealing for some people. It's unfortunate that Vincent doesn't really have a strength you can point to that makes him stand out. He's not super artistic or with great spins or footwork or SS and he does not have amazing technique or jumps either. So he's kind of middle of the road for a lot of people and there are other skaters people end up rooting for over him.
And it's not hate to point out he UR his jumps. He does and Tom Z should stop comparing him to a ballerina.
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First, thanks for joining the discussion. Post often, post long!
I think that Vincent became something of a lightning rod, through no fault of his own, when he became the poster boy for one side of the argument about whether U.S. figure skating should push quads or artistry. In his first U.S. Senior Nationals (2017) Vincent did 2 quad Salchows (and i think intended a quad Lutz attempt, but tripled it). This beat the artist Jason Brown for the silver medal. But the Quadlings rejoiced, "Oh boy, now we have two six-guns in our holsters, Nathan Chan and Vincent Zhou."
The next year was even more controversial. In the LP Zhou did 5 quads, but three were under-rotated and one was downgraded. Still, quads are quads. But there was the feeling that if quads are all you got, you should at least have real quads. Vincent placed ahead of Adam Rippon and was sent to the Olympics instead of Ross Minor who beat him at nationals.
Anyway, Vincent will be fine. He will keep working on all aspects of his skating and if he builds it, the fans will come. :yes:
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He does and Tom Z should stop comparing him to a ballerina.
Oh I heard about that.
I'm curious, where/when exactly did he do so?
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I must say that I absolutely agree with Tavi’s characterization. Why bring Jason into it at all? Why not simply say that Vincent doesn”t deserve the UR calls he is getting? Full stop. But a post that says that Jason gets “all the” love for “finally” throwing down one UR quad “well into his 20s” ? I spend my life in ETA: [persuasion, written and otherwise ] and in my opinion, the use of the words I’ve quoted are an attempt to disrespect Jason. YMMV.
I *do* agree that any post saying that a skater, such as Vincent, received more than his share of criticism is subjective.:thumbsup:
And this is not directed to your post, but jumping off to @Skylark’s point that “many” complaints come from Jason fans who seem “threatened” by Vincent”. I’m not sure such an assertion is helpful
I have “complained” (although I tend not to characterize what I believe to be valid criticism as “complaints”) about Vincent. It is not because as a Jason fan, I am somehow threatened by Vincent. I wish Vincent no ill and hope he skates his best.
I have seen criticism from others who I would probably identify as “Jason fans”, and none of what I saw is inspired by feeling “threatened”. Of course, without specific posts to discuss, it is difficult to parse.
And to return to the subject at hand, congrats to all three US men at 4CC
next up, the team at Worlds!
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This has become alarmingly personalised, and as a fan of Yuzu I get over-sensitive to that, but in order to try and put some distance...
I can understand why quite a lot of people, especially those from other countries like my own, find Vincent's tweets and posts, as much as his coach, somewhat... sandpapery and grating. Vincent appeared to be getting a free ride on his faults, especially from the US Fed and US media, and to be over-complacent and self-approbative about it. I don't know that he was either of those things, any more than your bog-standard 17-year-old - which he also is, apart from his skating, and nothing wrong with that.
And it may not be fair but it is totally human to criticise more harshly the failings of someone you don't much like on a personal level than somone you really do like (Jason and Junwhan have a lot of fans who find them adorable. They also have people who simply don't click with their differing brands of sunshine and yes, those people are harder for their faults than they would be for a favourite's failings. Few are doing it deliberately or with malice aforethought, it is human nature to excuse in a loved one what you would nitpick in a stranger).
Can't we just agree that there are rather too many faults being overlooked at the minute (no names, no pack drill), that pretty much every skater has been proclaimed overscored and underscored (no names, no mean feat), and that it really needs to be cleaned up for everyone? And that just because one person got away with it that doesn't mean the rest of them should? We were all told very early that "but she started it!" is no excuse...
I can understand why quite a lot of people, especially those from other countries like my own, find Vincent's tweets and posts, as much as his coach, somewhat... sandpapery and grating. Vincent appeared to be getting a free ride on his faults, especially from the US Fed and US media, and to be over-complacent and self-approbative about it. I don't know that he was either of those things, any more than your bog-standard 17-year-old - which he also is, apart from his skating, and nothing wrong with that.
And it may not be fair but it is totally human to criticise more harshly the failings of someone you don't much like on a personal level than somone you really do like (Jason and Junwhan have a lot of fans who find them adorable. They also have people who simply don't click with their differing brands of sunshine and yes, those people are harder for their faults than they would be for a favourite's failings. Few are doing it deliberately or with malice aforethought, it is human nature to excuse in a loved one what you would nitpick in a stranger).
Can't we just agree that there are rather too many faults being overlooked at the minute (no names, no pack drill), that pretty much every skater has been proclaimed overscored and underscored (no names, no mean feat), and that it really needs to be cleaned up for everyone? And that just because one person got away with it that doesn't mean the rest of them should? We were all told very early that "but she started it!" is no excuse...
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Or such as Jason, which was in Tavi's usage that I quoted.
Agree to absolutely disagree. (And words/writing/language were the basis of my livelihood for decades.)
But only after Junior Worlds.
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Oh I heard about that.
At nationals. He mentioned to either Tara and Johnny or Micheal and Charlie (honestly can't remember which one repeated it just remember hearing it) that he doesn't UR but lands his jumps on his toe like a ballerina.
I just feel his coaches do him no favors at times. Though this a little OT. I wish him the best at worlds. Supposedly he also has a knee injury as well? And boot issues? Seems like it's always something.
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1) The way his coach Tom Z talked abt Vincent's UR in social media
2) The way Vincent sometimes talk in interviews & reply on social media, is rather abrupt & direct.
Like the intv with Golden Skate for this 4C - that he knows what improvements he can make and need not be told it...
https://twitter.com/goldenskate/status/1094493933881573376?s=19
On social media, there was a journalist during OG 2018 who tweeted figure skating is not a sport. Vincent replied, rather curtly and direct.
3) Jason character is sunny sunshine and he speaks diplomatically, a more likeable personality. Jason has had his share of criticism too. In every Jason youtube vid comments section, there will be comments that Jason doesnt have a quad, he cant compete with the top men, at his age after so many years trying he will never get a quad...
Having said that, I havent seen a lot of hate on Vincent. There's much more support for Vincent than criticism. The responses were directed towards his coach Tom Z.
The criticism over the years on Boyang has actually been harsher. I distinctly remember the one during 2018 OG where a certain person said on live tv Boyang shouldnt have been 4th.
