Musicality, learned or innate?

Mathman said:

chopinskate said:

I don't think musicality and interpretation are the same, but that's me.

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el henry said:

As was said earlier, it depends on the interpretation of musicality.

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That has always been my problem in discussions of this type. I don't really know what "musicality" means. The dictionary says

musicality: (1) musical talent or sensitivity.

(2) the quality of having a pleasant sound; melodiousness.

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That's what I thought it meant, but I do not feel any the wiser for having looked it up.

To me, "musicality" is what the Beatles had. Kind of hard to pinpoint exactly what was great about "I wanna hold your hand!" -- it just was. :yes:

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https://blog.steezy.co/what-is-dance-musicality/
https://www.dancespirit.com/musicality_matters_how_to_become_a_more_musical_dancer-2326043375.html

For skating I personally separate the choreographic interpretation of the piece vs musicality of the skater, because the skater doesn't choreograph the piece (so that removes the creativity/turning music into form aspect of choreography from within the skater's grasp). But the musicality (accentuating the notes/adding emotion/understanding to the music etc) and performance skills of the skater will undoubtedly add something to the overall program.

I mean I guess it's kind of like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfmSv0z205s
https://youtu.be/bHjnZOuj3t4?t=254

So there in terms of how the choreography interprets the music is slightly different to me in the fouettes (I prefer Murphy's). But the way the two dancers are adding character to the music is different too.

It's too intermingled.

hanyuufan5 said:

Both, I think.

To paraphrase and combine Ic3Rabbit and LindaTNo1's sentiments, good choreography won't make someone severely naturally lacking in musicality into the next Yuzuru Hanyu.

However, Yuzu does hours and hours of image training late at night, sometimes noisily enough to get on his mama's nerves. Even skaters with incredible natural gifts for musicality still need to practice refining it.

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I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. What I said was that if they don't have it, they don't have it.

Someone can try to hide it with choreo but if the person isn't musical it is going to show big time. Choreographers aren't magicians.
I won't comment on said skater, or any in particular at this point.

Should also mention that 'musicality' has a cultural/historical layer as well, and we don't always see/hear/feel it alike anyway. Pretty much every discussion of a skater's musical or interpretative skills will show cultural biases as clearly - if you look - as a discussion of costumes, of programs, etc etc. Me and all, I admit it.

Ic3Rabbit said:

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. What I said was that if they don't have it, they don't have it.

Someone can try to hide it with choreo but if the person isn't musical it is going to show big time. Choreographers aren't magicians.
I won't comment on said skater, or any in particular at this point.

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That's exactly what I meant. If you just don't have it, that's that.

But even if you do, it still needs training. I just used Yuzuru as an example of someone I find extremely naturally musical but still trains hard to improve it even more.

chopinskate said:

I mean I guess it's kind of like: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfmSv0z205s

https://youtu.be/bHjnZOuj3t4?t=254

So there in terms of how the choreography interprets the music is slightly different to me in the fouettes (I prefer Murphy's). But the way the two dancers are adding character to the music is different too.

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I do not have the expertise in dance to compare these performances. But if I compare them to the typical figure skater flapping her arms like a bird and thinking she is showing musicality, I just get depressed.

Mathman said:

I do not have the experience in dance to compare these performances. But if I compare them to the typical figure skater flapping her arms like a bird and thinking she is showing musicality, I just get depressed.

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My fave part comes at the end, to compare. Nunez pulls away her hand, having done her job with the prince, in a rather cold fashion and hits a statuesque pose. Murphy cackles and pulls her hand away and hits a more curved pose in victory, having done this just because she can. At least that's what I think the point is

Ic3Rabbit said:

Choreographers aren't magicians.

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But sometimes I think they are! When I see a musical on stage and focus on a performer's actual dancing, I am often surprised at the lack of content. Especially in group numbers, it seems like it is all choreography. March downstage right and do a couple of lfea-hops. Yet the whole effect is magical.

(West Side Story is a good example. Take away Jerome Robbins and what do you have? The weak high school dance scene which can't be saved by any troop of dancers, however musical.)

Mathman said:

But sometimes I think they are! When I see a musical on stage and focus on a performer's actual dancing, I am often surprised at the lack of content. Especially in group numbers, it seems like it is all choreography. March downstage right and do a couple of lfea-hops. Yet the whole effect is magical.

(West Side Story is a good example. Take away Jerome Robbins and what do you have? The weak high school dance scene which can't be saved by any troop of dancers, however musical.)

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I have much experience in this. Truth is, they are not magicians. This may be true to a degree in stage dance, but not on the ice.

Personally, as a musician it's always interesting to read on how "musicality" is interpreted in figure skating, because the music used by skaters is carefully cut and arranged, and the skaters use it for all year long. So I think it's easy to think that a skater has great musicality based on something that is predetermined and deliberately crafted to highlight their best features as a skater.

For me, I personally interpret musicality as skaters' level of awareness to every varying note, tone, timbre, dynamics, tempo, character of sound and dimensions of the music used, no matter what happens in the program itself and/or whatever their interpretation of the program is. So it's both something innate and learned- simply because the nature of the sport makes skaters have to learn things- but there are instances or moments that can only happen with skaters with innate musicality. Falls or errors in a program can unnerve the best skaters in the world and make them lose that level of awareness as they troubleshoot things, no matter how smoothly- the skaters with innate musicality, I think, are the ones who can have falls and errors and still retain this deep connection with their music, up until the last second of it. The ones whose every single movement, including every simple transition, breathe together with the music they have. It's not just moving or doing choreo in time to the music, but doing like.. movements that have the same tonal depth and dimension with the music used. It can be a complex move or it can even be something as simple as curling your fingertips in a very specific way.

Also... I don't know, but I feel like even people who doesn't know skating well (and things like techniques, elements, scoring bullet points) will know which skaters have innate musicality when they watch without having to be pointed out which moments that shows it? Like they instinctively identifies that harmony between visual and sound in motion.

Oh, and these skaters must absolutely be watched with music on, and in full. They can be great skaters too when you watch them soundless or for a specific element, but the whole program with the music from start to finish... it's just another level entirely.

Edited to add:
This just crossed my mind, I realized that I never really answered the question: yes, musicality (or my own definition of musicality) can be learned. There are skaters who have an innate sense of it, but I don't think I'll ever know how they get it- naturally or simply because they've been familiar with the concept (either taught by their coaches or sheer necessity due to lacking technical content, so they have to focus on the music by themselves) since they were young.

And usually, there's background music (not program music) whenever skaters have their official practices/6 minutes warm-up right? For me it's usually a tell- there's a clear difference just in how the skaters would stroke the ice. The ones with the sense/awareness that I think is musicality always lets it bleed to their skating (almost like they instinctively "pick up" the music), in this sort of absent-minded way. It's like they can't help it.

As someone who has no musical background or education, I definitely just go by 'I know it when I see it'
From my viewing experience, musicality in a skater doesn't always come with good skating skills or other skills that make the judges want to score them highly, but it makes the skaters who have it so much more enjoyable to watch.

moonvine said:

Just what the title says....can one learn musicality? I guess someone who is naturally gifted in that area, but can a skater who lacks musicality improve that enough to become competitive? Or is musicality not needed if one can land multiple quads (or triple axels in the case of the women)?

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Good question. There is definitely a difference when it comes to just skating to the music to feeling the music. Kurt often points this out when he covers different skaters. Those skaters who are really listening and feeling their music come across to the audience much better. Just skating to the music can become somewhat "mechanical" watch G/P Canadian ice dancers performing their free program to Vincent by Don McLean and you will see what it means to really feel the music. Their program is one of the best I've seen in a long,long time.

moonvine said:

Just what the title says....can one learn musicality? I guess someone who is naturally gifted in that area, but can a skater who lacks musicality improve that enough to become competitive? Or is musicality not needed if one can land multiple quads (or triple axels in the case of the women)?

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Like any skill, I believe musicality can be taught. It just that some are born with a brain naturally wired to excel in musicality. Their musicality improves at a much faster rate than those who do not. Look at drawing. People say they cant draw but thats because the haven't put in decades of experience in honing the skill. I think it ultimately comes down to training. Those who are born with a more musical brain will improve faster and because they love and put musicality as top priority they will come out on top in musicality.

Yuna's giselle and Lark Ascending is a good example of someone who was hard wired to be musical and further honed that skill through training. Every beat of the music she is giving us expression. A shame she never performed those two routines cleanly.

LindaTNo1 said:

Music interpretation - Yuzuru Hanyu - GOAT The best in interpretation - No one comes close.

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No. Joshua Farris and Jason Brown. Their bodies sing.

I think musicality is for the most part innate, but can be improved with practice

It's like drawing- I am an awful artist by nature, however, I have practiced in my spare time for the last few years and I have been able to improve! However, some people are even better than I am on their first try... :confused2:

Interspectator said:

As someone who has no musical background or education, I definitely just go by 'I know it when I see it'
From my viewing experience, musicality in a skater doesn't always come with good skating skills or other skills that make the judges want to score them highly, but it makes the skaters who have it so much more enjoyable to watch.

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Something does click when you watch skaters with musicality and presence. :yes: You just "know". I especially agree with your second sentence, because judges (and many fans) seem to think skating skill = artistry when it isn't so.

moonvine said:

Just what the title says....can one learn musicality? I guess someone who is naturally gifted in that area, but can a skater who lacks musicality improve that enough to become competitive? Or is musicality not needed if one can land multiple quads (or triple axels in the case of the women)?

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Personally, I've come to the conclusion that it can't be taught but it can be learned and developed. I've watched far too many kids sawing away at their violins and tootling away at their recorders, or hopping and skipping their way around the ballet studio, without the faintest idea how to make notes into a melody or steps into a dance despite the best their teacher can do, only to join the school choir and suddenly get it, to believe that it can't be learned. Or vice versa, though there's something about the whole-body whole-brain experience of singing that seems to help more than anything else.

It definitely can be learned, among many other things. I used to believe voices with great singers cannot be taught, it is something related to how your vocal cord is structured when you were born, but even that can be dramatically improved as a local singer told me.

And when we say "innate", it is because some people develop musicality earlier in their age, perhaps from their parents hobbies/professions in their early childhood, their passion for dance or music outside of figure skating. Unless a 100 days baby without any pre-exposure to music can move rhythmically with music, I wouldn't call it "innate".

Parts of musicality are learned more easily than others. I think anyone can learn to carry a beat and have good timing with the rhythm of the music, and with enough practice, know how and when to flourish any accents in the music.

But it's only a small crop of skaters who can move beyond that and learn to skate with emotional intention, that ability to have meaning behind a movement. Nowadays I find a lot of physical intention because of how technical the sport has become, so emotional intention is quite rare; not that one is better than the other or anything, just that emotional intention is far more uncommon. With respect to the topic, I think physical intention can be learned for the most part and that emotional intention is more innate than learned. Sometimes it takes maturity or some kind of artistic epiphany, but it is possible to learn.

At the moment, I find skaters like Nathan Chen, Patrick Chan, Alina Zagitova, and Bradie Tennell to possess more physical intention than emotional intention. In contrast Jason Brown, Carolina Kostner, Satoko Miyahara, Mariah Bell this year, and Kevin Aymoz skate with more emotional intention than physical intention.

hippomoomin said:

It definitely can be learned, among many other things. I used to believe voices with great singers cannot be taught, it is something related to how your vocal cord is structured when you were born, but even that can be dramatically improved as a local singer told me.

And when we say "innate", it is because some people develop musicality earlier in their age, perhaps from their parents hobbies/professions in their early childhood, their passion for dance or music outside of figure skating. Unless a 100 days baby without any pre-exposure to music can move rhythmically with music, I wouldn't call it "innate".

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Okay I used to be a singer and I don’t fully agree with this. As Draqq says, some things can be taught. But not everything. For me the core of musicality is an innate response to music that is expressed outwardly. To some degree you can shape what the outward response “looks” like - but I don’t think you really teach someone to feel or be moved by music.

OT but with singers, you can definitely teach someone technique and give them polish, so if they work hard they will sound the best they possibly can. But how beautiful your voice is depends in part on physical stuff, and some people will improve with work, but will never have the most beautiful voice no matter how hard they work or how much they want it, because of their vocal structure.

draqq said:

At the moment, I find skaters like Nathan Chen, Patrick Chan, and Bradie Tennell to possess more physical intention than emotional intention.

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Agreed. Rather an absent-the-soul quality.