2019 4CCs: FD | Page 4 | Golden Skate

2019 4CCs: FD

Bcash

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Wow, maybe I'm not understanding where many of you discussing the style of MFD/PL training camp ice dancers are meaning, but my initial reaction is wanting to ask how old you all are (not really, don't answer that!). But, do you not remember "back in the day", like the 80's/90's, when ice dance free programs were like watching theater productions?? I'm thinking Kryolva, Pesarat (sorry for spellings), Ponamerinko----really all of the top names from that era. Their programs were always telling detailed stories, complete with lots of over-the-top theatrics, costumes and make-up.
Like I said, maybe I'm missing your points, but really??

I definitely think ID now has a lot more substance in terms of skating than that era. Although that era may have more flashes of brilliance (like those lifts from A/P). And yeah Krylova the definition of hamming it up.
 

YagsFan

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Ok, with a little help from the internet, I can be more precise in my reaction to this thread. Some of the prime examples of what I'm talking about are these skaters, from about 1984-2000: Klimova/Ponomarenko, Usova/Zhulin, Grishuk/Platov(without doubt THE example!), Krylova/Ovsyanevolpv. Anissina/Peizerat, Rahkamo/Kokko, Drobazho/Vanagas. All very theatrical, wildly-costumed; I remember commentators openly joking about audience members in the very top row being able to see Krylova's eye makeup and over-the top expressions. But, as these teams were the ones winning competitions, that is what the sport valued at that time. I really see no one today going to those lengths.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ I think the biggest determinant was the whole "is ice dancing a sport" debate and the attempts of the IJS to codify an appropriate scoring system.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
I was actually 100% ok with the results and frankly I think its where it should of been. Obviously I realize with out the mistake that these results would of been slightly different. I am honestly not a huge fan of H/D this season. I just dont get drawn in to either of their programs. I LOVED Chock and Bates FD. It was really exciting to watch, alot of unique moments and they really seemed to be on another level this year than in the past. I think Weaver and Poje's RD is the RD to beat this year in the world IMO although we all know the judges are going to score the French team about 3-5 points higher than anyone else. I think Piper and Paul's FD is simply stunning and so truly unique and very much a reflection of themselves. You can tell how much detail they have put into their program in all the small details to the opening choreography to the twizzle sequence to the final spin. Also in saying that W/P dance is completely different than G/P and it has grown on me. I wasn't a huge fan of it when I first saw it this year but now it is one of my favourites and really will be a force at worlds if skated clean and to their potential. I love how the podium ended up I just wish it had ended like that with out a major deduction from a team.

I'm happy that G&P finished ahead of W&P in the FD at both Four Continents and Nationals, because their Vincent program is lovely. :)

I don't really get why W&P are still competing. They're in their 30's now and are the oldest team competing. By staying on, it kind of makes it harder for G&P (and F-B & S) to move up in the World standings.

But at least G&P are closing in on W&P.
 

DSQ

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Country
United-Kingdom
I'm happy that G&P finished ahead of W&P in the FD at both Four Continents and Nationals, because their Vincent program is lovely. :)

I don't really get why W&P are still competing. They're in their 30's now and are the oldest team competing. By staying on, it kind of makes it harder for G&P (and F-B & S) to move up in the World standings.

But at least G&P are closing in on W&P.

Things don’t stay the same forever. I’d like to think the G&P can overtake Wepo without the latter having to retire. Plus I really respect older skaters, I wish there were more!
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
I'm happy that G&P finished ahead of W&P in the FD at both Four Continents and Nationals, because their Vincent program is lovely. :)

I don't really get why W&P are still competing. They're in their 30's now and are the oldest team competing. By staying on, it kind of makes it harder for G&P (and F-B & S) to move up in the World standings.

But at least G&P are closing in on W&P.

I mean, I'm pretty sure that's how W&P felt when Tessa and Scott kept competing.
 

Impromptu

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
I'm happy that G&P finished ahead of W&P in the FD at both Four Continents and Nationals, because their Vincent program is lovely. :)

I don't really get why W&P are still competing. They're in their 30's now and are the oldest team competing. By staying on, it kind of makes it harder for G&P (and F-B & S) to move up in the World standings.

But at least G&P are closing in on W&P.

They may technically have been the oldest in the field, but not by all that much. Yes, Poje is 31, but Evan Bates is 30, as is Nikolaj Sorenson. Andrew Dodds and Zach Donohue are 28, Tim Koleto and Paul Poirier are 27.

(Also Kaitlyn Weaver is 29, so she's not actually in her 30s).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I'm happy that G&P finished ahead of W&P in the FD at both Four Continents and Nationals, because their Vincent program is lovely. :)

I don't really get why W&P are still competing. They're in their 30's now and are the oldest team competing. By staying on, it kind of makes it harder for G&P (and F-B & S) to move up in the World standings.

But at least G&P are closing in on W&P.

While it does compromise G&P, it's nice to see G&P are rising to match them. Perhaps if W/P had retired, G&P might not be pushing as hard. It's nice to have a close rivalry.

I still think even at their age W/P have a grace and maturity to bring to the field that we don't really see in many of the younger teams. And if they still love doing it and are at the top, more power to them - others can try to get better, as we've seen G/P close the gap on them.
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
I can't even begin to tell you how many people would have to retire for me to be best in the world at anything.

People should skate for as long as they want to. It is their time and their money and their life.

And I think G&P would like to beat W&P before they retire.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I'm not a big supporter of the "retire so others can move up" way of thinking.

I'm a big fan of the "I'm going to knock you off the podium" mindset for athletes.

It doesn't always seem like it, but hard work does pay off. H/D bypassed TWO better ranked teams to claim their first national title.

If I'm G/P, my mindset towards W/P is "Enjoy your swan song. We're tightening up our RD, and we're going to kick your butt next time. THEN you can retire."

If, on the other hand, they're nursing hurt feelings because W/P came back, then I hope they never win again.
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Country
United-States
They may technically have been the oldest in the field, but not by all that much. Yes, Poje is 31, but Evan Bates is 30, as is Nikolaj Sorenson.

Not till next week! :noshake: His birthday is Feb. 23. :laugh:

While it does compromise G&P, it's nice to see G&P are rising to match them. Perhaps if W/P had retired, G&P might not be pushing as hard. It's nice to have a close rivalry.

That's true. But in ice dancing, and figure skating in general, what the audience experiences emotionally is part of the power and simple enjoyment of being there, watching a program, and exulting with the skaters in what they're able to communicate with their movement. I'm glad Piper and Paul have twice won the FD over W/P, because their Starry Night program transcends all the wonderful, difficult things they do in it. But the final standing also makes a disconnect with the audience.

Hubbell and Donohue's FD creates something much more than numbers show. They skate with incredible power, speed, authority, and a sort of joy and passion in their skating. Drama, too, esp with this R&J dance. So it all adds up to more than the sum of its parts. This is why there was such confusion from the live audience ... and all the audiences, not just in the arena, but everyone who was/is alive in that moment with Madi and Zach.
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
"The performance was actually not disappointing at all, we’re very pleased overall," said Hubbell.

Really? The lack of self-awareness from the team is disappointing, and I am their fan.

I found H/D skate at 4CC extremely lackluster - in contrast to the fireworks at Nationals! It was like watching too different teams, I couldn't believe it's the same program.

I can't quite put my figure on it (apart from a couple of moments of losing balance, which even my untrained eyes plainly saw), but there seemed less energy, less speed, and less soul in their 4CC performance - compared to the one at Nationals.

Something major was missing. I know it must have been the same exact program (right?), but it just didn't look like it. JMHO

So, while disappointing, I'm glad they got the 4th place, and weren't propped up. Fair is fair. I hope they analyze, recoup the spirit of the Nationals, regroup - and win the Worlds!
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Wow, maybe I'm not understanding where many of you discussing the style of MFD/PL training camp ice dancers are meaning, but my initial reaction is wanting to ask how old you all are (not really, don't answer that!). But, do you not remember "back in the day", like the 80's/90's, when ice dance free programs were like watching theater productions?? I'm thinking Kryolva, Pesarat (sorry for spellings), Ponamerinko----really all of the top names from that era. Their programs were always telling detailed stories, complete with lots of over-the-top theatrics, costumes and make-up.
Like I said, maybe I'm missing your points, but really??

:agree:
 

russell30

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
To be honest as much as like Hubbell/Donohue, that was right to have them fourth, I would have done too...Chock and bates, weaver and Poje and Gilles and Poirier were much better with better programs, Romeo and Juliet has been clubbed to death really, Hubbell and Donohue previous two programs were much in there style and were pushing new ground, this one is just not right for them.

I thought that Hawayek and baker were better than them too, was nice to see chock and Bates win, I thought that was one of there best free dances, I had an emotional ride with weaver and Poje I loved it and would have had that second, Gilles and Poirier love there program And ust edged the bronze from Hawayek and baker for me....
 
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Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I definitely think ID now has a lot more substance in terms of skating than that era. Although that era may have more flashes of brilliance (like those lifts from A/P). And yeah Krylova the definition of hamming it up.

On the other side skaters like Klimova and Ponomarenko; Usova and Zhulin, Krylova and Oksianikov, Pezerat, Lobacheva and Albervuk - they were all different and yet so dramatic and passionate. Now with the new rules and scoring system the programs may have different music and even themes but they kind of look a like. And the drama was really started by Torvill and Dean and then went overkill with Bestmianova and Bukin. Now we have Madison Chock kind of a watered down Krylova.
 

1904sk8

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
I have read in other places and am starting to believe that Romain is the best choreographer at gadbois. Almost all of the programs everyone likes from there are choreographed by him (Fear/Gibson being a main example along with a bunch of canadian junior teams which I like) not to mention he probably played the biggest role in p/c developing their own style (he has coached them for 10 years). I think to get good choreography at gadbois you need to either go to an outside person and then let the gadbois coaches do the finishing touches or have a strong idea in what you want to do, or else you will end up with the generic choreo which is bound to happen with 17 teams in one center
 

Roast Toast

Medalist
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
I have read in other places and am starting to believe that Romain is the best choreographer at gadbois. Almost all of the programs everyone likes from there are choreographed by him (Fear/Gibson being a main example along with a bunch of canadian junior teams which I like) not to mention he probably played the biggest role in p/c developing their own style (he has coached them for 10 years). I think to get good choreography at gadbois you need to either go to an outside person and then let the gadbois coaches do the finishing touches or have a strong idea in what you want to do, or else you will end up with the generic choreo which is bound to happen with 17 teams in one center

I also think he is the better choreographer this year but I cut M-F some slack after what she had to produce last year. I would also be spent artistically after that! Hopefully she will be more inspired next season. I think Romain's choreo is also pleasantly different because pretty much only his skaters actually skate on a rhythm in the FD at Gadbois.
 

Weathergal

Medalist
Joined
May 25, 2014
On the other side skaters like Klimova and Ponomarenko; Usova and Zhulin, Krylova and Oksianikov, Pezerat, Lobacheva and Albervuk - they were all different and yet so dramatic and passionate. Now with the new rules and scoring system the programs may have different music and even themes but they kind of look a like. And the drama was really started by Torvill and Dean and then went overkill with Bestmianova and Bukin. Now we have Madison Chock kind of a watered down Krylova.

With all due respect, I would never describe Madison Chock that way - I don't see her in any way relating to Krylova. Also I wouldn't call her a watered-down anything.

I would agree that many of the skaters from the 90s you mentioned are passionate, but they also veered into "overwrought." Now I can look back on some of those performances in a sentimental,way and kind of chuckle at the more over-the-top stuff, but at the time, sometimes especially Bestimianova and Krylova could be...a lot.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
You know, after reading your comment, I went back and watched the three American teams and the CanaDanes. I didn't find it to be the case. H/D, after the first few bars of overwrought music and arguably over-projection towards the judges, still skated the rest of the program to,and for each other. They are injecting more drama into their performance, but that seems justified given their program concept and music, whatever the merit of the music itself. C/B, by the nature of their dance and her performance style, does project towards the judge a lot, but I didn't find that overwrought. Their movements do convey specific character, and are quite precise and purposeful. H/B, I think during choreographic sequences, the performance can be read as a little superficial/emoting to the judges, esp. her, but the majority of the program they skated quite interior, to, and for each other. the CanaDanes, again, towards the end it might have acquired a little of the "mugging" air, but I don't think it's necessarily worse than what Ice Dancers across the years have done in their performances.

I really had to struggle to find the videos again :laugh: Where did you find them so quickly?

I'll preface by saying that I'm a much newer viewer of ID, and therefore I don't really know what happened in earlier years. I've watched mostly videos of V/M, D/W, the Shibutanis, and P/C before this. So if the earlier years just had more contrived expression and it's better now, that's not exactly a wonderful thing to me. Moreover, the aesthetic of dance has changed over the years, and what was good then doesn't necessarily have to be good now even if it's much more toned down, right?

This also means that the reason I might have noticed it more here because of so many MFD/PL teams coming in one after the other, but I do find the faux-romance shtick that comes from that camp too cloying.

C/B: I found them less offensive because of the stylistic choice. But it's kind of annoying because the looks at the judges randomly (especially from her) could easily be replaced by mischievous glances towards each other. Or they could have gone a different way where Bates is the one who is part of the story, whereas Chock could be letting the audience in on the secret through her glances, at the beginning at least. The choreo in the second part was a definite cheese-fest for me, not even carried through the entirety by full commitment, nor did I find the two halves to be particularly cohesive.

H/D are the ones that I found to have the weirdest movement quality to the music. Their expression along with the ragdoll-like movement in the beginning and at several points through the program (especially her) is quite off-putting. The way they move their arms at several points comes off as contrived, too (like "Yes! Kissing YOU! YOU! YOU RIGHT THERE!"). Now this might have less to do with the camp, and more their own basic dance-ability -- but it's up to the camp to train them to imbue a certain aesthetic in their dances I'd say, and they've had this program for almost a season now (merits and demerits of it aside).

H/B came off as highly superficial to me at several points, and I found several of the positions they made to come out of nowhere (for all the talk about transitions in other disciplines, literally I felt some of the choreographic passages had little transition between them, and that goes for all the programs here, leading to the "on the nose" quality that theharleyquinn mentioned IMO), and pandering to the audience in a "we are in LOVE, DID YOU KNOW?" sort of a way.

H/D and H/B had this exaggerated expression thing going on which, the merits regarding the respective programs aside, I didn't always find useful for the overall program.

FB/S: This program had little meaning overall for me, and that section to the slow music was oddly disconnected. I must bring up the way the guy moves, because it seems like he lacks a certain way of moving that would make it better connected with his partner. I'm surprisingly fine with the last part with the spanish music playing again, because it works, but it seems like three weirdly disjointed parts with a very superficial midsection.

Plus, and I realize this has to do with the many technical requirements of FD, some of the positions, and some of the arm movements seem to be there less for story-telling purposes, more for "we are DANCING" purposes. Especially the way they hit some poses, it's more like the dance is about pictures, instead of the pictures being part of the dance at points. It just takes me out of it. The contrived movement that I mentioned to me creates the impression that they are hyper-aware of the audience and are dancing and exaggerating for the purpose of pleasing than simply dancing. (I'm also not a fan of the ballroom-imbibed presentation that a lot were doing. Is it a requirement? Because some of the song choices would be better interpreted via the skaters presenting themselves as jazz dancers or modern ones, instead of having to be part of a lead-follow code. Currently I think Pairs is better, because not only does it have an entire set of skating elements at its disposal as part of interpretation, but they don't seem like they have to be in ballroom hold for the most part leading to more freedom -- I find S/H's Rain, In Your Black Eyes to be potentially better than P/C's).

The only section where Wang/Liu may really be interpreted as "hamming" it in their FD is during their choreographic character step sequence. Heightened emotional commitment is necessary here considering their story's progression near the end of the program and it needs to show the appropriate amount of angst, otherwise it falls flat (compare it to the previous version on the GP). This type of theme requires a balance of outward projection and an inward connection with each other. And I can see that, for example, when they start with their opening lift that really wows the audience while maintaining their eye contact on one another the entire time during the lift.

While the previous version of their FD was somewhat monotonous, there is better light and shade in this new version. They majorly reworked it in terms of the music cuts (notably adding the soft instrumental section after the one foot-steps), how the elements are distributed, and reworked many of the elements themselves. Happy they are being recognized for their improvements, obtaining a season's best here after stagnating with their scores. They have made good strides since switching to Gadbois.
Look at the way they hit several of their positions and move their arms. Very on the nose, a strange contrast to some points where they're almost not projecting well at all. There's a weird mismatch between them in this style, and it would be better if they skated something different. No one's taking away their improvements, but they still have room to grow. They are just not great dancers yet.
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
:rolleye: The only section where Wang/Liu may really be interpreted as "hamming" it in their FD is during their choreographic character step sequence. Heightened emotional commitment is necessary here considering their story's progression near the end of the program and it needs to show the appropriate amount of angst, otherwise it falls flat (compare it to the previous version on the GP). This type of theme requires a balance of outward projection and an inward connection with each other. And I can see that, for example, when they start with their opening lift that really wows the audience while maintaining their eye contact on one another the entire time during the lift.

While the previous version of their FD was somewhat monotonous, there is better light and shade in this new version. They majorly reworked it in terms of the music cuts (notably adding the soft instrumental section after the one foot-steps), how the elements are distributed, and reworked many of the elements themselves. Happy they are being recognized for their improvements, obtaining a season's best here after stagnating with their scores. They have made good strides since switching to Gadbois.

I like this FD a lot (Wang/Liu). Good choice of music, good choreography, and real emotion (especially from Liu).

I enjoyed the GP variant, but by far preferred the reworked 4CC version. Great improvement. I noticed them during Olympics, too. Maybe they are not as accomplished technically as others, but always memorable.

Why are they rated so low? What's the major thing they need to work on?
 
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