2019 4CCs: FD | Page 3 | Golden Skate

2019 4CCs: FD

Joined
Dec 9, 2017
What style? I can’t see just one.

Not dance style. I just dislike that a lot of their dancers have this weird mugging quality to how they perform. Very odd quality of movement to some of them, too. Again, not related to P/C.

If you notice Hubbell and Donohue's FD, they're sometimes projecting too much towards the judges, with Romeo and Juliet as the music. The W/L team is hamming it in a similar way.
 

SarahSynchro

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Country
Canada
H/D & Co reactions when scores came up...ohh dear...it was ICONIC! And C/B babies was like :shocked: as well.

Ashley Wagner is somewhere giving you the stink eye, you know, the one that went viral in Sochi? :laugh: But I agree with you, those were definitely some memorable reactions that we won’t forget anytime soon.
 

bunnybarista

If I risk it all, could you break my fall?~
On the Ice
Joined
May 27, 2018
Not dance style. I just dislike that a lot of their dancers have this weird mugging quality to how they perform. Very odd quality of movement to some of them, too. Again, not related to P/C.

If you notice Hubbell and Donohue's FD, they're sometimes projecting too much towards the judges, with Romeo and Juliet as the music. The W/L team is hamming it in a similar way.

I have to agree - I'm starting to tire a bit of the dominance of Gadbois teams. 7/12 teams at 4 CC are from there. And it feels weird for me to say that because at first I was extremely impressed at the results their teams were getting / the improvements I saw in skaters who switched over to them. But it starts to get boring, for example, when several teams have the same snippets of tango music for the RD... seriously? You guys couldn't make sure no one overlapped in music selections when they're all trained by the same coaches? That being said, Patrice, MF, etc. are awesome coaches and do great work and I do enjoy watching their teams... but... variety is the spice of life or something like that? :laugh:

I'm proud to see Weaver/Poje looking strong after a coaching change and without being part of the Gadbois team... :yahoo:
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Not dance style. I just dislike that a lot of their dancers have this weird mugging quality to how they perform. Very odd quality of movement to some of them, too. Again, not related to P/C.

If you notice Hubbell and Donohue's FD, they're sometimes projecting too much towards the judges, with Romeo and Juliet as the music. The W/L team is hamming it in a similar way.

I agree. Very hammy, on-the-nose storytelling and presentation. I find that most of the pairs actually have more sophisticated, mature-looking programs than a lot of the ice dancers this season in particular. This bodes well for the musical requirement next season. :palmf:
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
I agree. Very hammy, on-the-nose storytelling and presentation. I find that most of the pairs actually have more sophisticated, mature-looking programs than a lot of the ice dancers this season in particular. This bodes well for the musical requirement next season. :palmf:

I think S/H are more artistic than all ID teams :slink: At least in terms of interest they generate and creativity this season. I think P/C are great, but are just so limited with all the nonsense requirements.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
I have to agree - I'm starting to tire a bit of the dominance of Gadbois teams. 7/12 teams at 4 CC are from there.

Except P/C and C/B I am cheering against those teams too. Just for their following the herd. The French started it and they were original and unique, but now everybody wants to be French.
Just for curiosity - how do they fit that ice rink?
 

oly2018

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
I agree with a lot said on this page. I think C/B sell the best of the Gadbois teams because that is who they have always been. I think Gadbois is just fine tuning what they learned from Igor's team. IMO, it is telling that P/C look elsewhere for their choreo. I don't blame the coaches for things getting repetitive. With that many teams who are all on the same timeline, you can't give every single team your best. There is such a thing as diminishing return.
 

Bcash

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Except P/C and C/B I am cheering against those teams too. Just for their following the herd. The French started it and they were original and unique, but now everybody wants to be French.
Just for curiosity - how do they fit that ice rink?

From H/D old interviews, training blocks (on and off ice) are meticulously arranged throughout the day, and the top teams don’t often share ice time. Before each international competition, teams participating in that comp will have a simulation skate together.

They also have 2 rinks(?). Anyway the increase in teams there this season did have me wonder if the daily scheduling can accommodate that number, but I don’t think MFD and Lauzon are reckless people so I assume there shouldn’t be overflow issue.
 

Bcash

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
I agree with a lot said on this page. I think C/B sell the best of the Gadbois teams because that is who they have always been. I think Gadbois is just fine tuning what they learned from Igor's team. IMO, it is telling that P/C look elsewhere for their choreo. I don't blame the coaches for things getting repetitive. With that many teams who are all on the same timeline, you can't give every single team your best. There is such a thing as diminishing return.

I think Evan Bates has never looked as engaging as a performer as he does this season. Could be a lot of reasons but this is a noticeable change. P/C have had input from an outside voice the past two seasons but they also said the main frame of their programs and were all done by MFD.
 

Bcash

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
I agree. Very hammy, on-the-nose storytelling and presentation. I find that most of the pairs actually have more sophisticated, mature-looking programs than a lot of the ice dancers this season in particular. This bodes well for the musical requirement next season. :palmf:

It could be that bad dance programs stick out more. I mean except for S/H, the pairs programs are mostly nondescript. (J/C’s programs are chic and sexy, but that’s no artistic interest or depth.)
 

DSQ

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Country
United-Kingdom
I agree with a lot said on this page. I think C/B sell the best of the Gadbois teams because that is who they have always been. I think Gadbois is just fine tuning what they learned from Igor's team. IMO, it is telling that P/C look elsewhere for their choreo. I don't blame the coaches for things getting repetitive. With that many teams who are all on the same timeline, you can't give every single team your best. There is such a thing as diminishing return.

Perhaps it’s just my bias showing (in fact it definitely is xD) but I think so long as you avoid the “lyrical” style Gadbois can still come up with interesting programs. Perhaps it has to do with the amount of input the couple are willing to put into music choices but with Fear & Gibson they chose their Disco theme themselves and I think it’s been one of the most successful FD of the season. It was choreographed in house by Romain.

I don’t really have a problem with so many teams being at Montreal but I do find it strange when rivals are there. It’s one thing to have one Spanish team, British team and Japanese team but three American teams? I’m not sure I’d want to be training with my rivals who might take me off the world team. Which is why if I were Soucisse & Firus I'd be looking to move away from training with Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen.
 

oly2018

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Perhaps it’s just my bias showing (in fact it definitely is xD) but I think so long as you avoid the “lyrical” style Gadbois can still come up with interesting programs. Perhaps it has to do with the amount of input the couple are willing to put into music choices but with Fear & Gibson they chose their Disco theme themselves and I think it’s been one of the most successful FD of the season. It was choreographed in house by Romain.

I don’t really have a problem with so many teams being at Montreal but I do find it strange when rivals are there. It’s one thing to have one Spanish team, British team and Japanese team but three American teams? I’m not sure I’d want to be training with my rivals who might take me off the world team. Which is why if I were Soucisse & Firus I'd be looking to move away from training with Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen.

I think any of teams who are middling, like Soucisse and Firus need to look elsewhere because they won't stand out. I actually feel that way about Hawayek and Baker too. If you aren't one of the designated top or up and coming teams, you need something to make you stand out. I agree with your assessment that the teams who are benefiting the most, have an artistic vision or at least an idea of what they want to perform to. More than one Gadbois team this season has said they didn't know what they wanted to do, so they just picked something and made up a concept as they went along. That may work if you are a top team (H/D), but not so much if you are middle of the pack (Smart and Diaz).
 

Lamente Ariane

Skating Skills -5, Fashion +3, Camp +4
Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
I think any of teams who are middling, like Soucisse and Firus need to look elsewhere because they won't stand out. I actually feel that way about Hawayek and Baker too. If you aren't one of the designated top or up and coming teams, you need something to make you stand out. I agree with your assessment that the teams who are benefiting the most, have an artistic vision or at least an idea of what they want to perform to. More than one Gadbois team this season has said they didn't know what they wanted to do, so they just picked something and made up a concept as they went along. That may work if you are a top team (H/D), but not so much if you are middle of the pack (Smart and Diaz).

Specifically when it comes to Hawayek and Baker, I think they should stay put for now. Their twizzles have gone from extremely nerve-wracking to a highlight of their free dance, and I think they've added some lovely movements to their arsenal. They haven't been given the best RD this season but I don't at all feel they've slipped in the standings which is something that could have happened easily under less able coaching with Jean-Luc's concussion in the summer. I agree that I hope they're thinking about what they want to do in the RD next year and that could help them stand out more, but come on, they've had a much better season than the likes of Soucisse/Firus.
 

oly2018

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Specifically when it comes to Hawayek and Baker, I think they should stay put for now. Their twizzles have gone from extremely nerve-wracking to a highlight of their free dance, and I think they've added some lovely movements to their arsenal. They haven't been given the best RD this season but I don't at all feel they've slipped in the standings which is something that could have happened easily under less able coaching with Jean-Luc's concussion in the summer. I agree that I hope they're thinking about what they want to do in the RD next year and that could help them stand out more, but come on, they've had a much better season than the likes of Soucisse/Firus.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on the technical parts, but I think I may have not explained what I meant well. The twizzles are much better, but I think they are in the same position Soucisse/Firus were in just a short while ago. They are US #3 because for now, the other teams are developing, but I think those teams are at an advantage because they offer something different and at US Nationals, they were scored closer to US #4-5 than 1-2. I don't mean to say they should run away after only being there for one season, but I do think it would have been interesting to see what they would have looked like with a different coaching team. When I said middling, I meant lower in the ranks nationally. Obviously #3 is nothing to scoff at, but it isn't the same situation as the #3 spot in the US last year. I actually really like H/B, I just don't think the material they have been given does anything extra for them. I am very curious to see what they look like after another season though.
 

Bcash

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Not dance style. I just dislike that a lot of their dancers have this weird mugging quality to how they perform. Very odd quality of movement to some of them, too. Again, not related to P/C.

If you notice Hubbell and Donohue's FD, they're sometimes projecting too much towards the judges, with Romeo and Juliet as the music. The W/L team is hamming it in a similar way.

You know, after reading your comment, I went back and watched the three American teams and the CanaDanes. I didn't find it to be the case. H/D, after the first few bars of overwrought music and arguably over-projection towards the judges, still skated the rest of the program to,and for each other. They are injecting more drama into their performance, but that seems justified given their program concept and music, whatever the merit of the music itself. C/B, by the nature of their dance and her performance style, does project towards the judge a lot, but I didn't find that overwrought. Their movements do convey specific character, and are quite precise and purposeful. H/B, I think during choreographic sequences, the performance can be read as a little superficial/emoting to the judges, esp. her, but the majority of the program they skated quite interior, to, and for each other. the CanaDanes, again, towards the end it might have acquired a little of the "mugging" air, but I don't think it's necessarily worse than what Ice Dancers across the years have done in their performances.
 

jersey1302

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Country
Canada
I was actually 100% ok with the results and frankly I think its where it should of been. Obviously I realize with out the mistake that these results would of been slightly different. I am honestly not a huge fan of H/D this season. I just dont get drawn in to either of their programs. I LOVED Chock and Bates FD. It was really exciting to watch, alot of unique moments and they really seemed to be on another level this year than in the past. I think Weaver and Poje's RD is the RD to beat this year in the world IMO although we all know the judges are going to score the French team about 3-5 points higher than anyone else. I think Piper and Paul's FD is simply stunning and so truly unique and very much a reflection of themselves. You can tell how much detail they have put into their program in all the small details to the opening choreography to the twizzle sequence to the final spin. Also in saying that W/P dance is completely different than G/P and it has grown on me. I wasn't a huge fan of it when I first saw it this year but now it is one of my favourites and really will be a force at worlds if skated clean and to their potential. I love how the podium ended up I just wish it had ended like that with out a major deduction from a team.
 

Bcash

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
I was actually 100% ok with the results and frankly I think its where it should of been. Obviously I realize with out the mistake that these results would of been slightly different. I am honestly not a huge fan of H/D this season. I just dont get drawn in to either of their programs. I LOVED Chock and Bates FD. It was really exciting to watch, alot of unique moments and they really seemed to be on another level this year than in the past. I think Weaver and Poje's RD is the RD to beat this year in the world IMO although we all know the judges are going to score the French team about 3-5 points higher than anyone else. I think Piper and Paul's FD is simply stunning and so truly unique and very much a reflection of themselves. You can tell how much detail they have put into their program in all the small details to the opening choreography to the twizzle sequence to the final spin. Also in saying that W/P dance is completely different than G/P and it has grown on me. I wasn't a huge fan of it when I first saw it this year but now it is one of my favourites and really will be a force at worlds if skated clean and to their potential. I love how the podium ended up I just wish it had ended like that with out a major deduction from a team.

They would need to outskate everybody else to make it into the program to beat. I can't find a video of their RD at 4CC but at Canadian Nationals Tracy Wilson(?) was waxing poetic about their TR and I was like, gee I got quite distracted by Kaitlyn's habitual stiffness both in the upper body and in the knees to notice the emotional connection they were supposedly portraying. In terms of construction alone I agree the first 1/3 of their RD has very tasteful music and a thoughtfulness to it. Their FD also has a beautiful "look", with nicely designed elements. It opens strong but I couldn't quite see an arc or motif as they go on and the overall effect becomes muddled. G/P's FD has a much clearer design and tone. I just saw the short fast section as a weakness.

But having watched these programs at 4CC, I must say my wish to see two North American teams on the podium at Worlds became stronger.
 

BillNeal

You Know I'm a FS Fan...
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
The W/L team is hamming it in a similar way.

:rolleye: The only section where Wang/Liu may really be interpreted as "hamming" it in their FD is during their choreographic character step sequence. Heightened emotional commitment is necessary here considering their story's progression near the end of the program and it needs to show the appropriate amount of angst, otherwise it falls flat (compare it to the previous version on the GP). This type of theme requires a balance of outward projection and an inward connection with each other. And I can see that, for example, when they start with their opening lift that really wows the audience while maintaining their eye contact on one another the entire time during the lift.

While the previous version of their FD was somewhat monotonous, there is better light and shade in this new version. They majorly reworked it in terms of the music cuts (notably adding the soft instrumental section after the one foot-steps), how the elements are distributed, and reworked many of the elements themselves. Happy they are being recognized for their improvements, obtaining a season's best here after stagnating with their scores. They have made good strides since switching to Gadbois.
 

YagsFan

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Wow, maybe I'm not understanding where many of you discussing the style of MFD/PL training camp ice dancers are meaning, but my initial reaction is wanting to ask how old you all are (not really, don't answer that!). But, do you not remember "back in the day", like the 80's/90's, when ice dance free programs were like watching theater productions?? I'm thinking Kryolva, Pesarat (sorry for spellings), Ponamerinko----really all of the top names from that era. Their programs were always telling detailed stories, complete with lots of over-the-top theatrics, costumes and make-up.
Like I said, maybe I'm missing your points, but really??
 
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