Netflix 'Losers' series features Surya Bonaly | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Netflix 'Losers' series features Surya Bonaly

sadya

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Feb 10, 2006
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Just finished watching. After that we watched the curling episode too. I had no idea curling could be exciting! I remember the first time I saw it during '98 Nagano. Watching tv from far without my glasses, I thought people were just cleaning the ice. :palmf: Only much much later to realise it was actually an Olympic sport. Anyway, back to skating. The Bonaly episode wasn't too bad, it's similar to a podcast or a radio broadcast perhaps where they thought Bonaly never won because of her colour. I like how Bonaly explained she didn't blame Sato and it wasn't her fault. That is the first time I heard her say that. And I think her disappointment came across well. It made her behaviour more understandable. I still think it was the wrong attitude on the podium, but I understood her better this time.

It's good to see her more relaxed and happy in life now. She and her partner make a nice couple. :)

I do wonder sometimes, if now and then racism wasn't at play. I mean, we had some bad skates win competitions because judges liked those skaters, even though they didn't have enough positive points to justify a win. We also had other skaters who still won without being really great skaters. So why not give Bonaly a win with a clean skate once? On the other hand, we had people from different background win before as well. Who knows what was going on with the judges? This is all speculation and it's dangerous to speculate either way too much on such serious subjects.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
(yet Cohen was never criticized for her lack of edges).

Just a tiny point, but as I recall it, Sasha was constantly criticized for flat edges, especially on her spirals. (?) She was very flexible, though.
 

illusionspin

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 16, 2017
I’m very interested in her and her athleticism in a time where athleticism wasn’t as celebrated in figure skating as it is today. I’ll check it out when I have time :)
 

mishulyia

On the Ice
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Jun 23, 2018
I’d love to be a fly on the wall during one of her practice sessions with her mother. What made the mother think she was qualified to train an Olympic figure skater?
 

DSQ

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Apr 14, 2018
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I’ll admit when she said after her 1994 Worlds defeat “Maybe I’m not lucky” I cried a little. It was a narrow defeat but I just saw someone standing there realising that maybe there was nothing she could do ever to win. Especially after she felt she had gone some way to address her short comings.

Also the episode does address her issues with artistry in a fair way I think and I think Scott Hamilton’s words on that point were very true. However I think her fiancé had it right when he said:

Surya was just never going to fit into the ice princess mold and I think she knew that. Her best options were in pushing herself athletically to go for extremely difficult triple-triple sequences and combinations. That was her real only hope because she was never going to be what she wasn't.

Watching the Curling episode now and as someone from the birth place of Curling I’ll have no bad words said against it! xD
 

Arbitrary

Medalist
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
I’ll admit when she said after her 1994 Worlds defeat “Maybe I’m not lucky” I cried a little.

I remember I'd read an interview of some wealthy businessman few years ago.
The interviewer asked the usual question: - What helped you to reach the heights?

The businessman answered: - I own 10% of my success to my abilities for hard work. And 90% of the success to my luck.
He scratched his head and added: - I'd prefer 100% of luck.

I was very impressed With Surya in her time. And with the confession of that businessman.

P.S. Oksana Baul was 200% lucky girl. Unnaturally lucky, I'd say.
 

layman

On the Ice
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Oct 28, 2004
I’d love to be a fly on the wall during one of her practice sessions with her mother. What made the mother think she was qualified to train an Olympic figure skater?
I don't understand why this (coaching) arrangement is treated as so unusual. It's not. Denise Beillmann's Mom coached her. Danny Kwan coached Michelle. Even Arthur Liu is rumored to be very involved in his daughter's coaching/career. I have heard of many, many other active skate parents who either coached their children or managed their careers (Caroline Zhang, Vincent Zhou, and Nathan Chen's Moms come to mind...even Kristi Yamaguchi admitted that she too had a "Tiger" Mom who directed her career). Yet, the media chose to single out the relationship between Surya and her mother, to gawk at and ridicule like it was some kind of freak show. Was it because she and her Mom were of different races? I don't know for sure.

The (US) media treated everything involved with Surya like it was a freak show.
 

VenusHalley

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2018
I don't understand why this (coaching) arrangement is treated as so unusual. It's not. Denise Beillmann's Mom coached her. Danny Kwan coached Michelle. Even Arthur Liu is rumored to be very involved in his daughter's coaching/career. I have heard of many, many other active skate parents who either coached their children or managed their careers (Caroline Zhang, Vincent Zhou, and Nathan Chen's Moms come to mind...even Kristi Yamaguchi admitted that she too had a "Tiger" Mom who directed her career). Yet, the media chose to single out the relationship between Surya and her mother, to gawk at and ridicule like it was some kind of freak show. Was it because she and her Mom were of different races? I don't know for sure.

The (US) media treated everything involved with Surya like it was a freak show.

I don't think it was just the USA media.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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I don't understand why this (coaching) arrangement is treated as so unusual. It's not. Denise Beillmann's Mom coached her. Danny Kwan coached Michelle. Even Arthur Liu is rumored to be very involved in his daughter's coaching/career. I have heard of many, many other active skate parents who either coached their children or managed their careers (Caroline Zhang, Vincent Zhou, and Nathan Chen's Moms come to mind...even Kristi Yamaguchi admitted that she too had a "Tiger" Mom who directed her career). Yet, the media chose to single out the relationship between Surya and her mother, to gawk at and ridicule like it was some kind of freak show. Was it because she and her Mom were of different races? I don't know for sure.
:

The (US) media treated everything involved with Surya like it was a freak show.

I’m afraid I must disagree.

The US media did not treat everything concerning Surya as a “freak show”. The US media barely covered Surya at all. :biggrin:

And Michelle was certainly criticized for Danny as her coach, way more than Surya, since the US media cared 1000 times more about Michelle than Surya. ;)
 

isk82

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 30, 2003
I haven't watched the show yet, but I will. The problem with Surya wasn't that she was black; it was that she was a sloppy skater. She could do all the tricks, but she couldn't do school figures, which were part of the score then and her overall skating didn't appear to me to have the edge quality and the beauty of skating. Debi Thomas was black and she did just fine. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I'm so tired of everything being attributed to a person's skin color. Another thing Surya didn't have going for her was her "interesting" mother.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Thank you for this.

A well balanced, thoughtful presentation of all sides of the conversation regarding Surya (and seeing young Frank C. and Didi was a bonus:). )

For me, this clip proves that the US media coverage was not a "freak show" and not somehow skewed against Surya, just as I remembered.

And I do miss the up close and personal fluff pieces......
 
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layman

On the Ice
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Oct 28, 2004
I just finished watching the documentary and I must say that I was deeply moved and teary eyed. For those of you who are surprised by the constant controversy and negativity aimed at Surya, I say welcome to the life of a black female athlete. The documentary does a beautiful job of laying out what that is like...in Surya's wise words.
 

Globetrotter

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
I haven't watched the show yet, but I will. The problem with Surya wasn't that she was black; it was that she was a sloppy skater. She could do all the tricks, but she couldn't do school figures, which were part of the score then and her overall skating didn't appear to me to have the edge quality and the beauty of skating. Debi Thomas was black and she did just fine. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I'm so tired of everything being attributed to a person's skin color. Another thing Surya didn't have going for her was her "interesting" mother.

And it didn’t help that the 6.0 system was of no help in pointing out what she needed to work on. Surya had the technical good, the tricks but in the presentation portion, she was an extreme example of having strong performance and theatrics which the audience and judges will smile at but was noticeably awkward in between elements (I.e. transitions) and very very obviously awful in basic SS. Under CoP, there will be at least ways to repeatedly dock her appropriately in SS and TR components while rewarding her in say PE or IN where she deservedly did better. That would have sent the message to her and Mum that they need to polish up the basics. Instead, under 6.0, she kept receiving mix messages and confusing scores from judges in various comps that didn’t quite tell her clearly where she needed to buck up. Surya was one of the examples where I really thought the 6.0 system would have systematically place at a disadvantage.
 

isk82

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 30, 2003
I finally watched this last night. The story about the boxer, Michael Bentt, was heartbreaking.

I think the show accurately portrayed Surya's skating and her career. There were a lot of positive comments. The only negative came from the black woman who turned everything that happened to Surya into racism. I could barely stand to listen to her. If you watched the highlights that they showed, Surya just barely hung onto may of her jump landings. That's what I remember most about her skating, as well.

I don't think she was penalized for being black or not fitting the mold. I think if her overall skating skills had been better, she would have placed higher at events. I was surprised that they never mentioned Debi Thomas and her success as a "black" skater.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
This will probably be an unpopular opinion but I think Surya did herself in. She frequently and blatantly confronted the powers that be - her issue with tights among others. It wouldn't have killed her to wear her tights the way they were expected to be worn and that had nothing to do with racism. I hate it when that card is pulled and it isn't warranted. As someone said upthread, there were many successful non-Caucasions in skating at the time. Her skating skills - other than her athletic jumps - were not that good. Her "in-betweens" were jerky and not smooth at all. Had she worked on her deficiencies and still got knocked down then I could accept there was rascism involved BUT she continued to skate the same way no matter what feedback she received. She carried her arms too high which didn't help her overall lines. Her behavior on the podium, her doing the back flip which was outlawed, was all designed to be "in your face" because she was disappointed in her scores. There is no amateur sport out there that will respond positively to that kind of behavior no matter what your ethnic class is. I saw her on tour once and she was very, very nice to the fans, had a sweet personality, and seemed like a good person. Perhaps it was her mother - the spectre on the sidelines - that promoted her behavior? I think this program was out to send a message and it wasn't, IMO, necessarily the reality of Surya's career.
 

DSQ

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Apr 14, 2018
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United-Kingdom
Tights? What was deal with tights? Tbf they still don’t sell very good flesh coloured tight for darker skin in 2019 let alone 1992.
 

isk82

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 30, 2003
I agree 100%!

This will probably be an unpopular opinion but I think Surya did herself in. She frequently and blatantly confronted the powers that be - her issue with tights among others. It wouldn't have killed her to wear her tights the way they were expected to be worn and that had nothing to do with racism. I hate it when that card is pulled and it isn't warranted. As someone said upthread, there were many successful non-Caucasions in skating at the time. Her skating skills - other than her athletic jumps - were not that good. Her "in-betweens" were jerky and not smooth at all. Had she worked on her deficiencies and still got knocked down then I could accept there was rascism involved BUT she continued to skate the same way no matter what feedback she received. She carried her arms too high which didn't help her overall lines. Her behavior on the podium, her doing the back flip which was outlawed, was all designed to be "in your face" because she was disappointed in her scores. There is no amateur sport out there that will respond positively to that kind of behavior no matter what your ethnic class is. I saw her on tour once and she was very, very nice to the fans, had a sweet personality, and seemed like a good person. Perhaps it was her mother - the spectre on the sidelines - that promoted her behavior? I think this program was out to send a message and it wasn't, IMO, necessarily the reality of Surya's career.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
For context, in the US the Multi-Ethnic Placement Act had passed in the middle of Surya's career. The act was basically an anti-segregation act for adoption. Some agencies still do it, but they're careful and sneaky about it. Prior to the act it was very common for adoptive parents to be denied on the basis of race. I don't exactly know how it was perceived in France at the time, but transracial adoptions even now tend to encounter a lot of controversy and I assume that there was even more controversy at the time.

I think that this may be part of why Surya and her mother were looked at differently than some other families.

I also think it's possible that the 'differentness' is correlated. I suspect that people who 'buck convention' in one way (by adopting transracially for instance) might also buck convention in other ways more easily.
 
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