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Thread: At what point ISU will start to allow quads in Ladies SP?

  1. #81
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    One idea would be to add barrel jumping to the list of required elements That would truly make figure skating a sport and not just a show. Anyone who can jump over 23 barrels while wearing ice skates deserves at least 23 CoP points. The audience would love it and there would never be any disagreement as to who won.

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    for those who think jumping is the end all be all of this sport you are sorely mistaken.

    It’s why for the entire history of this sport having the best technical jump arsenal doesn’t garauntee a win. Look at D/R, 4sal and they couldn’t eclipse S/H. Boyang, 4Lz combo, still couldn’t overtake Yuzuru and Javier. Tonya and 3A barely won over most of her competitors.

    Jumping and revolutions in the air is just as technical as fast centered spins or deep flowing edges.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexz View Post
    Alina and Adelina had nearly perfect skates of their lives. Skater-A type wins. Mao had a meltdown and could not handle all her difficulty. Skater-A went all-in for a risk, but could not handle all the difficulty.
    Zhenya and Yuna had less difficulty and were hoping for their reputations and high-PCS. However, their landings were not perfectly clean, therefore even their high-PCS were not enough against clean'ish Skater-A. Skater-B loses. Very transparent and understandable. "Sport principle applies" as they say.

    Fans don't like corruption and want fair medals, otherwise they stop following this sport.
    Do you not see a contradiction here?

    You're going to tell me that Adelina was cleaner than Yuna at Sochi. Yuna had one iffy jump, a marginally rotated 3Lz that shouldn't be deemed underrotated, but was definitely tight on the landing. Adelina had multiple URs, poor landings on jumps and a two-footed jump. By your own criteria, Adelina shouldn't have won. And yet you call for fair medals. A very sizeable of the community still disputes the results of Sochi.

    To make your point, I'd rather you compare Yuna and Mao, or Nathan and Yuzuru at the Olympics.

    Also, I would hardly deem Alina's content as being that much more technically difficulty on base value as she repeats 3Lz, 3F instead of 3Lz, 3T, which is a base value increase of...1.1. Backloading is only another 1-2. A base value of 3 extra is nothing. Would you say that Nathan's FS without a 4S is that much more complicated than Yuzuru's FS this season? 4Lz, 4F vs 4Lo, 4S.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziotic View Post
    for those who think jumping is the end all be all of this sport you are sorely mistaken.

    It’s why for the entire history of this sport having the best technical jump arsenal doesn’t garauntee a win. Look at D/R, 4sal and they couldn’t eclipse S/H. Boyang, 4Lz combo, still couldn’t overtake Yuzuru and Javier. Tonya and 3A barely won over most of her competitors.

    Jumping and revolutions in the air is just as technical as fast centered spins or deep flowing edges.
    The hardest tech makes win only if you delivers it cleanly with good quality and good skating. Or (what is more the reality) if you have good reputation or are born under a bright star. When you have Judges' love you can get big PCS no matter how you skated and big GOE for telegraphed jumps with no transitions like a certain veteran did in the last quad.
    When Mao was beating Yuna on TES it was thanks to her BV. Even with more mistakes Yuna was just a few points behind or sometimes still beat her because of her monstruous GOE. Mao's average GOE was 0-1 while Yuna's was 2-3 for everything. Yuna never delivered an unique or super difficult tech content, but could score reallly big even with just 5 triples (which was she delivered most of the time since 3lo and 3S were not her friends). The perfect CoP skater. Under 6.0 it wouldn't have been the same story.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzxnl View Post
    That doesn't explain why 3As were allowed in the SP.
    The bigger question to me at this point is when did ISU start allowing 3As in the SP?
    How many years after Midori Ito successfully landed one?

    The ladies need to land quads at senior competitions 1st to start the ball rolling. That would be next season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    The bigger question to me at this point is when did ISU start allowing 3As in the SP?
    How many years after Midori Ito successfully landed one?
    3A has always been allowed in the SP jump combination ever since triples at all were allowed -- ca. 1975, well before anyone had landed a clean one in competition.

    Ito and Harding both included 3A combinations in their short programs during the 1991-92 season.

    3A as the required solo axel was first allowed for men in 1999 season, the same year that quads were first allowed (as the jump out of steps only for the first two years).

    For women it was first allowed in 2011 IIRC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lzxnl View Post
    Do you not see a contradiction here?

    You're going to tell me that Adelina was cleaner than Yuna at Sochi. Yuna had one iffy jump, a marginally rotated 3Lz that shouldn't be deemed underrotated, but was definitely tight on the landing. Adelina had multiple URs, poor landings on jumps and a two-footed jump. By your own criteria, Adelina shouldn't have won. And yet you call for fair medals. A very sizeable of the community still disputes the results of Sochi.

    To make your point, I'd rather you compare Yuna and Mao, or Nathan and Yuzuru at the Olympics.

    Also, I would hardly deem Alina's content as being that much more technically difficulty on base value as she repeats 3Lz, 3F instead of 3Lz, 3T, which is a base value increase of...1.1. Backloading is only another 1-2. A base value of 3 extra is nothing. Would you say that Nathan's FS without a 4S is that much more complicated than Yuzuru's FS this season? 4Lz, 4F vs 4Lo, 4S.
    no contradiction. Adelina had more difficult program than Yuna. Both went relatively clean with 1 big mistake and several minor ones. The strongest skater with most difficulty won. Period.

    Alina had more difficult program and went clean. By a bigger margin difficulty than "just 2-3 points". Also doing jumps in the second half is hard, athletically hard. ANd figure skating is a sport, not a beauty pageant. Well, if you ever tried figure skating on a serious level you should probably know. I repeat: figure skating is a sport. Otherwise it will be out of Olympics. Strongest should win. Sochi and PyeongChang had the strongest ones on the podiums. Medals were right.

    Besides, let's look into perspectives here. Pretty soon when more girls will be doing quads and difficult triple combos it will be much harder to select the clear winner, so ISU will drop the "Zagitova rule" and allow more jumps in the second half for that 10% bonus. Because the sport should be competitive. And the winner should be determined on basic principles of fair competition. So I see Zagitova rule to be dismissed in 5-6 years.

    Delusional fans, amateur and TSL-alikes can dispute whatever they want. We been through this many times on this forum. Although for the sake of entertainment let's just say that Adelina "had more transitions". :P

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    One idea would be to add barrel jumping to the list of required elements That would truly make figure skating a sport and not just a show. Anyone who can jump over 23 barrels while wearing ice skates deserves at least 23 CoP points. The audience would love it and there would never be any disagreement as to who won.
    Where do I sign up for that?

    First champion will be American. This is clear as day. What rules might be for those 23 barrel jumpings? Although, as soon we stop winning we obviously would want to change the rules. We are 'mericans, this is kind of what we do. Well, I'm not going into details, but look at the current state of world affairs.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexz View Post
    Alina, Adelina and Mao Asada had the most difficult programs back than (for their time). Skater-A.
    Zhenya and Yuna had slightly "easier" jumps and ladings were not perfect, but both had higher PCS skills and likable programs. Skater-B.

    Alina and Adelina had nearly perfect skates of their lives. Skater-A type wins. Mao had a meltdown and could not handle all her difficulty. Skater-A went all-in for a risk, but could not handle all the difficulty.
    Zhenya and Yuna had less difficulty and were hoping for their reputations and high-PCS. However, their landings were not perfectly clean, therefore even their high-PCS were not enough against clean'ish Skater-A. Skater-B loses. Very transparent and understandable. "Sport principle applies" as they say.
    IMO, this logic is only valid if skaters with more difficult content delivered a clean program. And Adelina had a few mistakes that should have been costly.
    We should also take into consideration the gap between their PCS and the gap between the TES. And then, math comes into play.
    This, I think, is more applicable with Yuna vs. Mao situation than Adelina vs. Yuna.

    I would also like to reiterate that quality of elements is part of mastery and skill and therefore part of TES as GOE. So even tho Adelina has a higher base value than Yuna, Yuna's GOE should have closed the gap in TES and she should have won because of the big difference in PCS.

    In the case of Evgenia vs. Alina, Alina's TES is just too high for Evgenia to catch up to. And PCS wise, I think that they were closer to each other although not at the sky high Pyeongchang PCS they got. So all in all, Alina's win was correct IMO.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexz View Post
    Where do I sign up for that?

    First champion will be American. This is clear as day. What rules might be for those 23 barrel jumpings? Although, as soon we stop winning we obviously would want to change the rules. We are 'mericans, this is kind of what we do. Well, I'm not going into details, but look at the current state of world affairs.
    I didn’t realize you identified so strongly with Americans, good for you! Although I’m afraid I do need to ask what about the “current state of world affairs” makes you think Americans are any more likely to change rules than any other country? That I am simply not seeing, I will need details.

    And surely you are not calling anyone delusional on the other side of the Adelina YuNa debate? (one which I have no stake in, if anything I rooted for Adelina because she had social media with Jason and so was clearly proud of her ‘Merican friends). I apologize if I am misreading that post.
    Last edited by el henry; 03-18-2019 at 12:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziotic View Post
    for those who think jumping is the end all be all of this sport you are sorely mistaken.

    It’s why for the entire history of this sport having the best technical jump arsenal doesn’t garauntee a win. Look at D/R, 4sal and they couldn’t eclipse S/H. Boyang, 4Lz combo, still couldn’t overtake Yuzuru and Javier. Tonya and 3A barely won over most of her competitors.

    Jumping and revolutions in the air is just as technical as fast centered spins or deep flowing edges.
    D/R eclipsed S/H to win gold at Worlds 2016 and worlds 2017 - and in both instances, their 4S certainly helped (along with their higher BV on SBS jumps) - especially since S/H had a quad twist of their own. It got to a point that some people were getting mad at D/R winning because of having the best technical arsenal.

    Jin also beat Javier at WC2017 to win bronze, and would have been off the podium if not for his jump arsenal.

  12. #92
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    Sui Han won worlds 2017.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexz View Post
    no contradiction. Adelina had more difficult program than Yuna. Both went relatively clean with 1 big mistake and several minor ones. The strongest skater with most difficulty won. Period.

    Alina had more difficult program and went clean. By a bigger margin difficulty than "just 2-3 points". Also doing jumps in the second half is hard, athletically hard. ANd figure skating is a sport, not a beauty pageant. Well, if you ever tried figure skating on a serious level you should probably know. I repeat: figure skating is a sport. Otherwise it will be out of Olympics. Strongest should win. Sochi and PyeongChang had the strongest ones on the podiums. Medals were right.

    Besides, let's look into perspectives here. Pretty soon when more girls will be doing quads and difficult triple combos it will be much harder to select the clear winner, so ISU will drop the "Zagitova rule" and allow more jumps in the second half for that 10% bonus. Because the sport should be competitive. And the winner should be determined on basic principles of fair competition. So I see Zagitova rule to be dismissed in 5-6 years.

    Delusional fans, amateur and TSL-alikes can dispute whatever they want. We been through this many times on this forum. Although for the sake of entertainment let's just say that Adelina "had more transitions". :P
    Yuna's several minor mistakes? Name one that wasn't the 3Lz in the free. Let's see Adelina.
    'Strongest' skater goes for a 3T-3T in the short. Two-foots a jump. Underrotates many jumps. Notorious flutz. Almost falls in a step sequence. You call that the strongest skater Sochi had to offer? And then, explain the gap between her Sochi marks and her marks at the GP events a few months prior. How often do you see a skater's scores increase by 20 points in a month? Or 35 points in three months?

    As mentioned above, your comparison only works between Yuna and Mao.

    I do, however, agree with Alina winning. Both of them were clean, Alina went for harder combos and would have lost had she not had the presence of mind to land her 3Lz-3Lo in the second half.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuvIce View Post
    Sui Han won worlds 2017.
    I think Canadianskaterguy meant 2015 and 2016. In the 2014-2015 season Duhamel and Radford were at their peak and won everything they entered.Sui and Han were rising fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    I would quite like to see quads allowed in Ladies’ SPs, but that the SP should be even more of a technical test for both men and women.

    E.g. Allow just a single quad, and have a proscribed jump, just like in juniors. For example you never get Shoma Uno doing a Lutz or Mikhail Kolyada a flip. Such a test would force them to show that all round ability.

    Similarly I wonder about the need for 3 spins in the SP, they’re almost always identical to the ones the skaters do in the LP, and why not have something like a 2nd sequence e.g. choreographic or even figures related – don’t know how the latter might actually work, but someone out there might have a good idea.


    What do people think?
    I'm not sure about the limit on number of quads for SP. There really aren't that many top men jumping multiple quads in the SP. There's already a limit on repetition of quads in the LP forcing them to learn different ones. Not sure the goal of it other than evening the field (or watering down the technical content).

    I also don't agree to limit to one specific kind of quad. I noticed the first quad for the men differ depending on whether they are stronger Toe jumper versus edge jumpers. Not everyone started or have a steady quad toe. Just like not everyone have a quad Sal.

    As to reducing the spins, wouldn't that penalize skaters that don't have the most difficult jumps like Jason? While yes some skaters do the same exact spins, maybe changes should be made to the type of spins available to get that difficulty level instead of reducing.

    As for ladies allowed for quads in the SP in Juniors. I think if they are going to do that, they should make that available for men first since a lot of the top Junior men have quads now.

  16. #96
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    I think that ladies should do more quads if they want to shorten their careers....

    i voted for not anytime soon...i don't know that much about how much energy it usually takes to do a quad, especially ladies, but i think they are not allowed to do quads in the short program for a reason...they are trying to limit the amount of quads they are doing, possibly to give the ladies longer careers...it's already hard enough men to do quads day in and day out

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