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For the purest of purists though I agree... there's Liza, Caro... uh... Who else?
Tomoe Kawabata
https://youtu.be/rYdweNbhfw8?t=229
At what point ISU will start to allow quads in Ladies SP?
- Thread starter Tolstoj
- Start date
Tomoe Kawabata
https://youtu.be/rYdweNbhfw8?t=229
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- Feb 17, 2010
I think it might take a bit longer. I'm not sure that the ISU wants to give that big of an advantage to technical skaters, particularly in the ladies event.
I think there is actually a decent crop of ladies who don't prerotate much — at least on most jumps; -3Ts and -2T-2Los are another matter sadly — it's just that most of them are either prone to chronic URs or fall a lot. Lena Radionova is a recent example of a skater with obviously many issues with jump technique that is (was? :sad21however not particularly prone to prerotation. For the purest of purists though I agree... there's Liza, Caro... uh... Who else?
Kaetlyn Osmond.
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Jumps taking off "forward" (1/2 turn pre-rotation) is normal, although not strictly textbook for Lutz/Flip, but Anna and Trusova are going beyond forward on their takeoffs. Anna's 4Lutz is pre-rotated a bit less than 3/4 and landed fully backwards of the starting point though, so it's more rotated than any of Trusova's quads. Here's a closer look at Trusova's 4Toe:
Start - From here, a "normal" toeloop takeoff would mean the toepick is facing the back board when it leaves the ice, 1/2 turn of pre-rotation. Look at how much further around her foot is on the takeoff instead:
Takeoff - The foot is going sideways, it's a 1/4 turn past the point where the jump normally should leave the ice. With this kind of takeoff, she should be landing perfectly "backwards" from that starting point of the jump to meet the minimum rotation requirement of 1/4 turn leeway. Actually, the rules now state that a skater must be "less than 1/4 turn short", so strictly speaking if you are exactly 1/4 short it's supposed to be a < call now. This 1 degree of change in the rules is a peculiar semantic, but let's look at where she lands:
Landing - She's not quite fully backwards in relation to the board behind her, which is what she needed to at least hit the minimum rotation of only 1/4 turn short. Watching outside of just screenshots, you can see the bit of skid on the ice, as her blade is fully on the ice at that 1/4 turn mark and is forced to keep turning.
Yes, but they shouldn't be pre-rotated more than 1/2 a turn. And if they are pre-rotated more than that amount, it means the landings should be further around to compensate. As described above, and also in my other examples of the current Junior Men in another thread, the problem is how people are now regularly turning further than 1/2 on takeoffs, and sometimes even more than 3/4 on the takeoff for jumps done in combo.
The same as with the other jumps, swinging around on the toepick during the takeoff. The difference is apparent in real-time between a 1/2 pre-rotation and a 3/4 pre-rotation; watch for the bit of delay and how it looks like the skater is already a full turn into the jump when they've barely gotten into the air. Given that excessively pre-rotated jumps almost always have less rotation in total than a normal backwards landing jump (since people do this to cheat jumps, rather than as a specific technique to achieve FULL rotation), the difference becomes apparent in the overall picture as well. The skater's lower body usually looks like it is trying to catch-up with the upper body, and the sense of the full turns in the air isn't there, where you can normally recognize each turn and the way it looks the spinning velocity is increasing as the skater is already relatively far off the ground.
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She pre-rotated more than 1/2 turn on her toeloops (although usually a bit less than 3/4) and didn't do textbook Lutz/Flip takeoffs, using the 1/2 turn pre-rotation on those. She did usually land close to "backwards" though, and achieved good height, so she generally was doing fine. Her 2Axel+3Toe combo at 2018 Worlds was short however, and also a couple other times her 3Toe should have been called (the solo 3Toe at 2013 Worlds LP, off the the top of my head).
Excellent!
I’d bet the push by Russia and their minions for quad in short is already in the works.
But I must say holding back the technical abilities makes no sense to me.
The problem is in the program components. For example:,Trusova etc received in the 8s, even high 8s for skating skills. Seriously? Within one point of Patrick Chan skills? spare me the different event bs etc. The system is supposed to be to a true standard. limiting is absurd in sport, and it would be no problem whatsoever in short, girls/vs ladies etc... if the components were scored from a place of true effort to judge accurately with indepth knowledge. There wouldn’t be a problems at any level if judges...
So here we go again: it’s the judges. How much money has been spent and will be spent reinventing the wheel when the money and system should be focused on true knowledge and real punishment for negligence? But then again negligence could be studied by those that need a judge to be outed for various reasons, and not necessarily true. It’s all negligence. It’s all corrupt.
But I must say holding back the technical abilities makes no sense to me.
The problem is in the program components. For example:,Trusova etc received in the 8s, even high 8s for skating skills. Seriously? Within one point of Patrick Chan skills? spare me the different event bs etc. The system is supposed to be to a true standard. limiting is absurd in sport, and it would be no problem whatsoever in short, girls/vs ladies etc... if the components were scored from a place of true effort to judge accurately with indepth knowledge. There wouldn’t be a problems at any level if judges...
So here we go again: it’s the judges. How much money has been spent and will be spent reinventing the wheel when the money and system should be focused on true knowledge and real punishment for negligence? But then again negligence could be studied by those that need a judge to be outed for various reasons, and not necessarily true. It’s all negligence. It’s all corrupt.
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Why wouldn't they push for it? Japan was probably largely responsible for the push to get the 3A allowed in the SP, as Mao was the only woman in the world who could benefit from the change at that time.
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This. I mean, how many women there are who can jump quads for now? 2? Maybe 3? Ok. And how many women there are who can jump 3A for now? 2? Maybe 3? Ok.
So, where is logic in allowing one and forbidding other, I wonder?
There is an argument here that 3A requires good technique while quads do not necessarily. As Tutberidze cannot teach proper technique her wonder babies can only jump quads and not 3A. Hence, having 3A only is correct because short program is historically about good technique.
I know that some people here take all the words seriously. So, it was sarcasm. I even would make a face expression like Sheldon Cooper does:
She has jumper-teachers. If those aren't enough she can consider some "student exchange".
Taking on lease some 3A-teacher from other club and helping his/her girls to learn 4S. 4S is so common now there is no big deal if 50+ more girls start to do it routinely.
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Wait, images can be linked on the forums now? What is this magic.
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honestly: :yawn:
^^SOrry, but this is how average FS fan would feel like.
For the sake of viewership and popularity of the sport rules should be obvious, logical and simple (as they could possibly be). Frankly, you are overthinking it now and trying to push over fans to nitpicking every little breath, angle and stride of the jump. Like you do. Just think about it. I dont know if tried FS, but ... jumping high and rotating multiple revolution in the air. ON ICE. IN SKATES. This is difficult enough for any human being. On top of that now you want to punish our skaters for a slight imperfections in their jumps, which are complex and dangerous enough at this day and age.
Rules should be transparent and clear to spectators without watching slow-mo replays for dozens of times and nitpicking the protocols - like we all do at home. Average FS fans don't do that, they are in for the beauty and excitement of the sport.
For simple FS fans rules should be simple and transparent:
Skater-A has the most difficult jumps (1 or multiple quads & triple axels and the most difficult triples/triple-combos like 3Lz-3Lo), but could be slightly not perfect in her choreo skills for high PCS and can mess a landing a bit on most difficult jump(s). SO, if Skater-A does not fall and dont have too many costly errors, he/she(/they) is a clear winner. This is sport after all, therefore highest difficulty should be rewarded with highest points and slight imperfection could be forgiven, because highest difficulty is risky. Fair. Think here of Sasha Trusova, Hanyu, Chen, Zagitova, Kihira, Shoma, Kolyada, also of Adelina Sotnikova & Mao Asada at their times.
Skater-B has difficult jumps, but not the most difficult ones (triples/triple-triples/double-axels for ladies or just 1 or 2 "easy" quads for guys), but PCS skills are great and landings are perfect. So, if Skater-B goes squeaky clean and Skater-A falls and/or have 3-4+ substantial mistakes (scratchy and shaky landings, wrong/unclear edge, 2-foot stepouts, etc) than Skater-B should win. If Skater-A is not perfect, but does not make or have a lot of serious flaws/mistakes than Skater-A should win over the squeaky clean Skater-B, because risky highest difficulty should be rewarded, because FS is athletic sport, not a pro-forma show. Think of Anna Shcherbakova, Fernandez, Yuna Kim, Medvedeva, Kovtun, Samarin, Messing, Boyang JIN here. (Although some of them has PCS which are not upto what I like to call "minimal artistic standards").
Skater-C has simple jumps (low-tier triples/simple 3T combos/double axel), but PCS are great and landing are perfect. The only way when Skater-C could win over Skater-A and Skater-B is if they make a lot of mistakes and/or falls and Skater-C goes super clean and PCS & choreography of programs are super great and are popular among fans worldwide. Think of Alyona Kostornaya, Osmand, Carolina Kostner, Ashley Wagner and similar. However they still need to go very clean on their "easier" programs and their opponents Skaters-A and Skaters-B should make mistakes. In the past we had seen Skaters-C winning (Kostornaya at GPF) or sneaking onto the podiums (Wagner's silver at home WC, Kostner's bronze at Sochi-2014).
In the eyes of the average simple FS fan podiums of Sochi and PyeongChang were logical and obvious. Zagitova and Sotnikova = Skater-A, Medvedeva and Yuna Kim = Skater-B, Kostner and Osmand = Skater-C. Perfectly fair and obvious. Very transparent for average FS fan, who doesn't dig much into protocols and doesn't spend hours on slowmo replays and arguing on forums and social networks for days. And does not overthinking it like you do.
Current scoring system IJS is the most transparent and fairest across all "beauty sports". It keeps the FS sport still spectacular and judging transfers fairly into points. And at least pro fans can see later on where and why their faves are losing points. Compare protocols and slow-mo replays.- Joined
- Mar 26, 2014
Very solid argument. One thing perplexes me, though: how did Kolyada who jumps just 1 to 2 quads but has superb skating skills get in group A while Samarin who is nothing but jumps is in group B?
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I don’t even follow the ladies that much, but
Obvious to the “average FS fan” that Adelina and Alina were skater A? And Zhenya and YuNa were skater B?
Well, maybe if you were already Adelina’s and Alina’s fans. Otherwise, based on all the average fans I read and see from all over, not so much
ETA: especially because the only way athletic risk is defined is revolutions in the air in a jump? Obvious to the “average” FS fan? uh, not so much
Obvious to the “average FS fan” that Adelina and Alina were skater A? And Zhenya and YuNa were skater B?
Well, maybe if you were already Adelina’s and Alina’s fans. Otherwise, based on all the average fans I read and see from all over, not so much
ETA: especially because the only way athletic risk is defined is revolutions in the air in a jump? Obvious to the “average” FS fan? uh, not so much
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Gotta watch those minions, for sure.
But there is another way to view the Short Program. To me, it is like composing a sonnet. The structure is so rigid -- exactly 14 lines of such-and-such meter and such-and-such rhyme scheme -- that to the average would-be wordsmith it must feel like a straight-jacket.
Why can't I do it this way, or that? Because then it's not a sonnet. (Save this and that for the LP.)
The beauty lies in matching the form to the content. Make a program out of a double Axel, a layback spin. a diagonal step sequence, an Ina Bauer and a Russian split jump. Who can do it the best?
Two days later, small medal in the bank, now you can do your five-quad free verse. Higher, faster, more revolutions
Twice as many points!
First of all, we should remember that the 3A was allowed in SP for ladies when there were very few girls jumping it, so technically, ISU could enable it in SP as soon as any girl lands a couple of clean quads in competition on senior level.
But think that, as long as only the russian ladies (jr or senior) jump and land quads, there will be no change. Right now, it benefits russians, and pretty sure other big feds wouldnt want it (for instance, Kihira with 3 3As can beat Trusova, but if Trusova is allowed and lands a clean quad in SP, it will be a whole different thing). But as soon as Kihira lands it, or Alysa learns it, there will be more push for it, since other big feds will also want it to give advantage to their own skaters. I am not taking Liz Tursynbayeva into account here, because small fed, she could land quints and still nobody would bother.
But think that, as long as only the russian ladies (jr or senior) jump and land quads, there will be no change. Right now, it benefits russians, and pretty sure other big feds wouldnt want it (for instance, Kihira with 3 3As can beat Trusova, but if Trusova is allowed and lands a clean quad in SP, it will be a whole different thing). But as soon as Kihira lands it, or Alysa learns it, there will be more push for it, since other big feds will also want it to give advantage to their own skaters. I am not taking Liz Tursynbayeva into account here, because small fed, she could land quints and still nobody would bother.
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Obvious to the “average FS fan” that Adelina and Alina were skater A? And Zhenya and YuNa were skater B?
Well, maybe if you were already Adelina’s and Alina’s fans. Otherwise, based on all the average fans I read and see from all over, not so much
Why not? Comparing to her competitors last season Alina had the most technically advanced program - with 3Lz+3Lo combo and all jumps in second half. Zhenya, on other hand, had much simpler layout. The same can be said about Adelina and Yuna. I don't see any problems with the above definitions :confused2:
As I understand Alexz point - if we follow Blades of Passion suggestion in judging jumps - we will make absolutely incomprehensible and unwatchable fs for casual viewers - as they would not be able to understand why skater with more complex jumps would lose to skater with simpler jumps if both are visibly clean. And one of causes for many changes at recent ISU congress was to make fs more clear for casual fans - as far as I remember. Else we would risk to turn fs in ice dance type of "sport" where clean execution and reputation are playing the most important role. And it's the most unpopular type of fs as I dare to remind you - exactly because of it.
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I should clarify that I am taking no position as to the relative merits of @Blades of Passion or @Alexz's argument. I do not hold strong opinions about pre-rotation.
My issue is that we all hold positions as figure skating fans based on our own perception of what is important to the sport and what we consider sport.
It is not a "truth universally acknowledged" that more rotations in the air in a jump is what defines a "sport" or is what casual fans want or understand. Posters on this board debate that topic all the time, and of course, we all think we're right. But it is *not* a given.
And the relative merits of Adelina and YuNa have started many a thread on this Board with many varying opinions. No one truth. The same, less so, with Alina and Zhenya. Again, not a given, no matter how strongly their fans may feel
So my issue is saying that the comparisons are *obvious* to the casual fan. IMO, they are not. IMO, the casual fan can't tell four revolutions from three and doesn't care.
But that's just my opinion. Others may disagree. I can't speak for all casual fans, and neither can anyone else
That was my only point
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Seconding el_henry's post above, I don't think that this is obvious at all. I don't think that the "casual viewer" knows or cares that a flip is harder than a Salchow (or can tell the difference). Plus, many a casual viewer is impressed (rightly so IMHO) by a grand Russian split jump (0 points) or a gorgeous change of edge spiral. Many casual viewers prefer a pretty Arabesque layback to an ugly change-of-position/drag-your-skate-over-your-head Level 4 combination spin. Many casual viewers cheer when a skater delivers the old razz-a-ma-tazz to rousing music.
"Hey, why did did this soul-satisfying performance lose to that boring one?"
We answer (showing our superiority to the "casual fan") "More complicated jumps." Oh. OK, then.
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For this, you need a good commentator FS. The casual viewer becomes an advanced casual viewer after 2-3 program views with Tedd. However most of the talking heads lead the audience mainly to the dark side of their own preferences. 
And on the merits: I am convinced that the decision on quads for women will be reviewed and made no sooner than someone from Japanese women can do it more or less consistently. Health and good luck to Rica and others. Let them not linger.
And on the merits: I am convinced that the decision on quads for women will be reviewed and made no sooner than someone from Japanese women can do it more or less consistently. Health and good luck to Rica and others. Let them not linger.
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- Mar 26, 2014
Seconding el_henry's post above, I don't think that this is obvious at all. I don't think that the "casual viewer" knows or cares that a flip is harder than a Salchow (or can tell the difference). Plus, many a casual viewer is impressed (rightly so IMHO) by a grand Russian split jump (0 points) or a gorgeous change of edge spiral. Many casual viewers prefer a pretty Arabesque layback to an ugly change-of-position/drag-your-skate-over-your-head Level 4 combination spin. Many casual viewers cheer when a skater delivers the old razz-a-ma-tazz to rousing music.
"Hey, why did did this soul-satisfying performance lose to that boring one?"
We answer (showing our superiority to the "casual fan") "More complicated jumps." Oh. OK, then.
For me the answer to this is that there are 3 not 2 groups.
The largest one are true casual fans who watch FS once in 4 years. Russian casual fans were the majority in Sochi mainly because many international fans gave up their tickets after listening to their media. That's how I got my A level tickets which were impossible to get at first. Those fans, first, are patriotic, second care only about skaters' not falling. It's like in the circus. There are jugglers with different levels of skills and routine difficulty. But no matter what they do the impression goes south if they drop things. There were a lot of "crocodile tears" about Sochi crowd but, boy, those who shed them should blame only themselves.
The smallest one are hard-core purists most of whom are located here or on some other fs boards. Those people watch angles in slow-mo, calculate rotations and argue, argue, argue. Catering to those people? It's possible, but I agree with Elucidus that it will make the sport incomprehensible to 99% of viewers. Then it will make the waiting time longer which is a serious problem. Finally, it will not make the sport more subjectively fair because even those hard-core fans have very different opinions sometimes.
But there is the third group of fans in between who follow the sport, who watch competitions other than OG. Some of them can tell the difference between the jumps (like myself) - some of them cannot (like my wife). The group is not homogeneuos. I can tell for myself who is on its "upper" side. I care about angles and rotations when mistakes are visible in real time. Like when a skater is doing a lutz from an obvious curve in the direction of rotation. Or like when it's a clear "hook" on the ice after the landing. But I don't care much while watching the program when there is the last moment change of the blade position from the outside to inside/flat while the take-off curve was in the correct direction. Being here, I do watch slow-mos assessing the angles and landings but only because it's a "popular game" here. And also when there are cases when 2 skaters (Osmond and Medvedeva) have similar angle issues but only one is picked for the criticism.
I think that the argument of catering to this third group has rationale. These are the people who like and follow the sport unlike those "Russian bastards" who came to watch ladies short program in Sochi after the hockey quarter final where Russia lost to Finland. Those people were strongly displeased and were shouting "Ra-sse-ya" to everyone having no idea about "the queens" like Yuna, Mao or Caro. At the same time, catering to purist will kill the watchability of the sport, no doubt.
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