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Thread: Sport or art?

  1. #1
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    Sport or art?

    Supposedly both but it seeems some long term skaters like Carolina and Jason are well liked. I love them but wonder at the scoring of skating skills when the tech content is that of men 25 years ago. I am a huge fan of Both skaters and Jason did a great perfect sp. I loved it. But even I wonder why some skaters are in a scoring zone all their own. Jason will never have a reliable quad he is too old and the sport is about quads. It is hard to judge watching TV or online as opposed to. In arena and yes we all loved the skating of a certain Canadian who usually fell twice yet won. Anyway the scoring is always a bit crazy and I just think if you stay around a long time and skate like it was 1988 and the folks love you you will be overscored. What he did he did perfectly but he cannot remotely do what several others do routinely.

    Vincent Needs to smile and relax. I think if he looked like he enjoyed skating we could relax and enjoy him. Very surprised at the huge gap between Nathan and everyone. They do really like him and are in awe of this student athlete warrior. I really think the men should be closer. I guess I should just enjoy what there is and stop wondering about scores. It never makes total sense and never has regardless of the system in place.

    What do you all feel regarding the scoring in any and all events? Fair? Right on? A little off? Hanyu has won OG with worse performance. It is just weird. Anyway I love the men and ladies sp. some great moments.

    The pairs- hmmm I sure miss Savchenko and anyoneshe skates with. Sui/Han really skate and perform with passion. I just see them as so tiny and admire how he lifts her so well. I didn’t see the other two pairs but I’m not much into pairs for a long time. I seem to like the skaters from 2002 and then Aliona. Yes she was 36 but my was she not just incredible? I so miss her in the pair event.

    Dance will be who has the best modernist type skate. I miss Virtue and Moir but really in ice dance all the top teams are special. I wish I could see live if Gabby and Guillaume are obviously always better than most anyone anywhere. I wish we saw the FP before the RD. Well after this what is there to watch? Season over.
    Last edited by skateluvr; 03-21-2019 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Typos

  2. #2
    Medalist Mafke's Avatar
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    It's neither sport nor art - it's a discipline. That means that higher and faster by themselves are not enough, they need to be done in the right way.

    I can't even watch modern skating since I dislike quads and almost all the leading skaters look uncoordinated and awkward to me - they can jump or twist around like pretzels... but so many balance checks, so little flow, such poor body position...

  3. #3
    "Oh I wish I had a river I could skate away on..." Ic3Rabbit's Avatar
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    It's sport combined with artistry. Though many are highly lacking in the artistry part.

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    Bona Fide Member plushyfan's Avatar
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    Both.

  5. #5
    JULLLIEEEEETTTT! Step Sequence4's Avatar
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    Ugh, again?
    you listed the answer in the first line. its both.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ic3Rabbit View Post
    It's sport combined with artistry. Though many are highly lacking in the artistry part.
    It's dancing theater on ice. Modern dancing is just as challenging athletically, but in figure skating, the "sports" part comes from being on ice.

    But many skaters lack not just "artistry", but basic dancing skills. In dancing, it's not enough "to jump" or "to raise a leg in a high-kick" (think Zagitova's ugly kicks or hunched posture during last year's Don Quixote - she'd be booed off stage in any dance competition ).

    It's not enough to do a challenging element - one has to look precise, graceful and effortless while doing it. That's the key to dancing - perfect precision and musical flow, striking a pose (often in mid-air), landing gracefully, all the while telling an emotional story that would move the audience.

    Unfortunately, many overhyped medalists are anything but.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual View Post
    It's dancing theater on ice. Modern dancing is just as challenging athletically, but in figure skating, the "sports" part comes from being on ice.

    I wouldn't say that figure skating is primarily dancing, made more difficult/sportier by taking place on ice. (Arguably that could be true for ice dancing. And show skating is certainly primarily about art and entertainment.)

    I'd say competitive figure skating is primarily a sport based on using the body to control the paths of blade edges gliding on ice, enhanced both by athletic skills that happen in the air above the ice and by performing all of the above skills to music, for audiences. Which can be done in ways that could be considered "dance" or "art" but those are not defining characteristics.

    It's possible to be a great skater without dancing at all or being artistic at all.

    It's also possible to be a great dancer or great artist who performs on ice. But if that dancing doesn't involve much in the way of skating skill, then that performer would not be a great skater and would probably not place as well in competition as stronger skaters.

    There is room for debate whether it should be more important to enhance the skating with art/dance or with jumps (and lifts in the case of pair skating). For a long time, the above-ice athletic skills have had more effect on results than the performance qualities, and the IJS scale of values and component factors officially set the parameters for where competitors can earn the most points, with the athletic skills earning the most points in singles and pairs.

    But among skaters who are very good to great at two or all three of the areas of skating technique, athleticism, and artistry, there is room for the exact balance of which skills adds up to a winning performance to vary based on exactly what and how each of them performs that day.

  8. #8
    "Oh I wish I had a river I could skate away on..." Ic3Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual View Post
    It's dancing theater on ice. Modern dancing is just as challenging athletically, but in figure skating, the "sports" part comes from being on ice.

    But many skaters lack not just "artistry", but basic dancing skills. In dancing, it's not enough "to jump" or "to raise a leg in a high-kick" (think Zagitova's ugly kicks or hunched posture during last year's Don Quixote - she'd be booed off stage in any dance competition ).

    It's not enough to do a challenging element - one has to look precise, graceful and effortless while doing it. That's the key to dancing - perfect precision and musical flow, striking a pose (often in mid-air), landing gracefully, all the while telling an emotional story that would move the audience.

    Unfortunately, many overhyped medalists are anything but.
    I'm aware, I dance.

  9. #9
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    If it's not sport, it shouldn't be in the Olympics.

    Yes, it's so easy.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ic3Rabbit View Post
    I'm aware, I dance.
    That's why I quoted you. I liked what you said.

  11. #11
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    Competition wise, it's a sport. There isn't the breathing room for placing artistry over technique. There are competitors who push the artistic boundaries of what can be achieved in a program -- P/C with their free dances, Kevin Aymoz's free skate would have been better if he didn't have to land quads because the jumps were besides the point -- but it's really, really, really rare to see skaters in a competition program push that envelope. (Among the ladies I think it's Bradie who has the potential to do some really interesting programs...).

    But out side of the competitive skating world there are a lot of artistic things going on. The difference is akin to comparing international competitive gymnastics with the NCAA gymnastics tourney. Competitive gymnastics has to pack in as many points as possible, while NCAA has a 10 limit. It you just want to watch high level tricks competitive gymnastics is the way to go. If you want to watch a programs that will bring joy and rock your soul - NCAA. Same with skating: if all you want are the jumps and spins and racking points: elite competition. But there are many, many groups using figure skating to create art out there that shouldn't be overlooked.

  12. #12
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    A sports first, and then art. The technical aspect of any sports can be art by itself.

  13. #13
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    There seems to be the mistaken idea here that gracefulness and skating to the music properly is not athletic. You can argue that skating gracefully to the music and having a high level of artistry on the ice requires more athletic ability than pure speed or number of rotations you can get in a jump. There is a reason that for the vast majority of skating history the presentation mark had priority over the tech mark. A skater that can't move gracefully to the music can never be considered a great skater no matter how good a jumper they are. Another laughable aspect to this argument is that many people mistakenly believe the technical marks are less arbitrary than artistic marks. That's false. If you look at the criteria for GOE they are filled with judges opinions of what is difficult or original or other opinions on the elements. Even whether a jump is 1/4 rotation short or not is evidently very subjective. Lol This sport will always be based on opinion no matter how they try to hide it with more and more numbers. Because all the numbers are based on often times flawed opinions of judges. As they say, Garbage in, garbage out. Lol

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joekaz View Post
    There seems to be the mistaken idea here that gracefulness and skating to the music properly is not athletic. You can argue that skating gracefully to the music and having a high level of artistry on the ice requires more athletic ability than pure speed or number of rotations you can get in a jump. There is a reason that for the vast majority of skating history the presentation mark had priority over the tech mark. A skater that can't move gracefully to the music can never be considered a great skater no matter how good a jumper they are.

    Another laughable aspect to this argument is that many people mistakenly believe the technical marks are less arbitrary than artistic marks. That's false.
    Exactly. More than that - lack of polished artistry is a sign of inferior skating skills.

    This is why it's so infuriating to see mediocre skaters rewarded with superior rankings and medals, purely based on the paper worth of their tech content.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joekaz View Post
    There seems to be the mistaken idea here that gracefulness and skating to the music properly is not athletic. You can argue that skating gracefully to the music and having a high level of artistry on the ice requires more athletic ability than pure speed or number of rotations you can get in a jump. There is a reason that for the vast majority of skating history the presentation mark had priority over the tech mark. A skater that can't move gracefully to the music can never be considered a great skater no matter how good a jumper they are. Another laughable aspect to this argument is that many people mistakenly believe the technical marks are less arbitrary than artistic marks. That's false. If you look at the criteria for GOE they are filled with judges opinions of what is difficult or original or other opinions on the elements. Even whether a jump is 1/4 rotation short or not is evidently very subjective. Lol This sport will always be based on opinion no matter how they try to hide it with more and more numbers. Because all the numbers are based on often times flawed opinions of judges. As they say, Garbage in, garbage out. Lol
    This. Thank you.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joekaz View Post
    There seems to be the mistaken idea here that gracefulness and skating to the music properly is not athletic. You can argue that skating gracefully to the music and having a high level of artistry on the ice requires more athletic ability than pure speed or number of rotations you can get in a jump. There is a reason that for the vast majority of skating history the presentation mark had priority over the tech mark. A skater that can't move gracefully to the music can never be considered a great skater no matter how good a jumper they are. Another laughable aspect to this argument is that many people mistakenly believe the technical marks are less arbitrary than artistic marks. That's false. If you look at the criteria for GOE they are filled with judges opinions of what is difficult or original or other opinions on the elements. Even whether a jump is 1/4 rotation short or not is evidently very subjective. Lol This sport will always be based on opinion no matter how they try to hide it with more and more numbers. Because all the numbers are based on often times flawed opinions of judges. As they say, Garbage in, garbage out. Lol
    However there is no technical or artistic mark in the new system. There is one general mark for the required elements and one general mark for skating the 'program as a whole'. Both those marks are made of tecnical and 'artistic' requirements, and different skaters can build both of those scores by using more 'technical' or more 'artistic' criterias. But you can't split them the way you/people are doing. You can say for example that one skater is more oriented on performing the music and other one on performing the jumps. Those skaters who are performing the music can do that by skating on the music rhythm or expressing more the nuancies of the music by their inner feeling of the music etc etc Everything of that is more or less technical in nature, but product of those technicallities can be observed as an 'artistic' piece.

  17. #17
    GS Supporter CoyoteChris's Avatar
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    Its a "Spart". The 100 yard dash is a sport. Ballet is an art. Figure skating is both together.
    Its all in the scorin'
    With the dash, its all about the clock. You can argue till the cows come home about if this or that runner elbowed or blocked his/her neighbor, or if someone used ill eagle shoes or jumped the gun, but the clock rules.
    In Ballet, you have to make others feel emotion. Mostly "good" emotions. Not regret for attending the performance . No clock. No measuring tape. No doing figures on the ice for people with clocks and measuring tapes.

    The problem in skating is....the art part must be converted into numbers.....and since Quality in thought and deed is just what you like, that is hard to do. I like Jason's art with his "Riverdance" skate. There are other skaters out there that could be skating to "Three Blind Mice" and make no attempt to reach the audience. But that is just my two cents. Others here love those other skaters.

    Its a problem here in case you havent noticed.

    Imagine if football players were scored also on artistry.
    Talk about arguments!

  18. #18
    Driving Quads, Jumping Quads, Trusova = Quadster! Edwin's Avatar
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    To me, figure skating is art made into sports, much like some gymnastics disciplines.
    I foremost like the musical interpretation, since music is one of my main interests in arts.

    Art is subjective, hence the many discussions and arguments here and elsewhere.

  19. #19
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    I've always viewed it as primarily a sport and the athletic qualities/skating ability are what I look for first and foremost in a skater. The abilities to express and be artistic define the truly best skaters but that is always something subjective like anything art-related. A great program is a synergy of athletic and artful but for figure skating to be taken seriously, the athletic aspects need to be at the forefront and then enhanced by artistic qualities, IMO. Ice dance is the exception - I look for genuine artistry and thoughtful choreography in ice dance and then look for strong elements being woven into that.

  20. #20
    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    It's a sport, first and foremost.

    The best athletic skaters are always going to vie for the big titles, and the one who delivers the maximum content in the most pleasing way will be the winner.

    All the greatest artistic champions we pine for... John Curry, Peggy Fleming, Toller Cranston, Michelle Kwan... we also pretty fantastic technicians, on par with the difficulty demanded of their day.

    I cannot recall a prior champion who did not deliver excellent technical content. One can, I suppose, argue Lysacek as a counter-example, but it must be remembered that he barely beat a sub-par Plushenko. Had Plushenko delivered better, he would have won, no question.

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