Sport or art?

Edwin said:

To me, figure skating is art made into sports, much like some gymnastics disciplines.
I foremost like the musical interpretation, since music is one of my main interests in arts.

Art is subjective, hence the many discussions and arguments here and elsewhere.

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Edwin does make a good point. It started out as art, after all, and then became a sport.....

I would say that figure skating started out as a pastime. Some practitioners through the 19th century focused more on developing techniques to control the tracings of the blades on the ice, others (e.g., Jackson Haines) more on using skating techniques for purposes of performing for audiences, some (e.g., Axel Paulsen) on incorporating athletic feats.

As competitive skating was consolidated into a sport governed by the International Skating Union at the end of the 19th century, all of those strands were incorporated, but the technical skills of controlling the blades on the ice were primary in determining results for basically the first century of figure skating as a competitive activity.

(Maybe the idea of socially dancing with a partner on ice would be considered a different purpose, which eventually developed into competitive ice dancing.)

Meanwhile, ice shows and other forms of skating as performing art developed their own traditions throughout the 20th century and into the 21st, primarily completely separate from the ISU's mission of governing competition, but always with some cross-fertilization in both directions between shows and competition.

Once school figures were eliminated from competitive singles skating, both athleticism and artistry grew in importance, although blade-to-ice skills are still important to the sport, albeit not to casual fans.

Still, I think the ISU is primarily interested in figure skating as a competitive sport based in technique and athleticism, with artistry as an added benefit.

Show/art skating thrives in other contexts, maybe most strongly in Russia lately. Most show skating stars started out as competitive skaters, many elite skaters go back and forth between competition and performing in shows during the off season (and in exhibition performances at competitions), many skating choreographers work in both the competitive and the show skating worlds, etc. I.e., there is still plenty of cross-fertilization between the sport skating and the art skating worlds.

Competitive skating is not the be-all and end-all of figure skating.

But ISU/Olympic-eligible skating is primarily about sport and always has been.

gkelly said:

I would say that figure skating started out as a pastime. Some practitioners through the 19th century focused more on developing techniques to control the tracings of the blades on the ice ...

As competitive skating was consolidated into a sport governed by the International Skating Union at the end of the 19th century, all of those strands were incorporated, but the technical skills of controlling the blades on the ice were primary in determining results for basically the first century of figure skating as a competitive activity.

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I actually have the same question about figures. Is tracing patterns on the ice sport or art? Here are some figures by Nikolai Panin, the only Olympic champion (1908) in "fancy figures."

http://allrus.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Figures-drawn-with-ice-skate-blade-by-Nikolai-Panin.jpg

Maybe school figures is something like a contest in sketching a pretty picture, but where everyone has to sketch exactly the same picture. The emphasis is on the technique of how to hold the brush, how each stroke should be executed, etc. You can give a prize for the most accurate sketch, but does that make it a sport?

Maybe the idea of socially dancing with a partner on ice would be considered a different purpose, which eventually developed into competitive ice dancing.

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I have heard it claimed that figures began by young swains showing off for their girlfriends by carving their initials in the ice, drawing hearts, etc.

I like that it's both sport and art, because it keeps me engaged and makes discussing competitions more interesting. Disagreements here often involve whether someone's artistry was good enough to offset another skater's technical advantage. To me, there usually isn't a clear answer but I enjoy hearing everyone's perspective on it.

Far more a sport than an art. It's practically an ice choose-your-own-adventure obstacle course. The season feels like horse racing. And no fiddling with the PCS factors will change any of this.

Here's my pie in the sky(as in, I know it won't happen for very good reasons) way of making figure skating more artistic.

1. Make something like solo ice dancing(steps-spins-spirals) the new figures. Call it the presentation skate. It seems to me that many skaters are too often conditioned to make jumps a kind of presentation crutch and they never learn to present without them. This part would only account for 10% of the total score. And yes, spirals need to be required for ladies because a good spiral really requires posture, poise, and glide. It could be done just for novice/juniors potentially as a replacement for the short program.
2. Add time to the free skate. Without more time given to skaters to do whatever they want there's little room for something really artistic.
3. Spinning in the freeskate should be free and it's main purpose should be to reflect the music/communicate with the audience... in my scheme, spin levels would be restricted to the solo ice dance-like presentation program and short program.
4. Give extra money to skaters who make the grand prix final to change a program mid season. Some program spontaneity is needed for there to be a real competition on "artistry'. Ideally for competing on artistry there would be a competition once a month with everyone debuting new programs but that'll never happen for very good reason.
5. And if I'm going all the way(which I'm not sure I would want to), make the short program a show program. Do it under exhibition lights and let them use props.

The whole dank white hockey rink aesthetic is something that needs to be counteracted somewhat. Not every event can be setup like the Olympics, but something can be done to kind of "enchant" the scenery. The 2015 Grand Prix Final had the best non-Olympic aesthetic setup that I can remember. Russian nationals this year looked nice to me with with the blue background and with so many advertisements having a solid color background.

Sport for medals, art for love. I would say.

Because it takes a great deal of athleticism and because there is competition, I would say it's a sport first and the artistry comes in in the presentation of that athleticism.

Mathman said:

I actually have the same question about figures. Is tracing patterns on the ice sport or art? Here are some figures by Nikolai Panin, the only Olympic champion (1908) in "fancy figures."

http://allrus.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Figures-drawn-with-ice-skate-blade-by-Nikolai-Panin.jpg

Maybe school figures is something like a contest in sketching a pretty picture, but where everyone has to sketch exactly the same picture. The emphasis is on the technique of how to hold the brush, how each stroke should be executed, etc. You can give a prize for the most accurate sketch, but does that make it a sport?

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There are various definitions of "sport" as well as various definitions of "art."

But if it's competitive and it's also a difficult physical feat that requires athletic skill using the whole body, it's hard to say that it's not sport. Unless your definition of sport includes direct struggle against a competitor. In skating, as in many other sports, the athletes are struggling against physical forces not each other. In this case, gravity and centrifugal and centripetal forces.

I have heard it claimed that figures began by young swains showing off for their girlfriends by carving their initials in the ice, drawing hearts, etc.

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I don't think that's how it began. First skaters needed to figure out exactly what the blades were capable of and what they needed to do with their bodies to achieve each type of edge and turn.

Once they had a repertory of skills, they could start to elaborate and combine if they wished. Or to focus on perfection of the basic geometry.

Three turns were known by the early 19th century as I understand. They could be used to draw the numeral 3 or a heart shape, or a cursive Q when combined with a change of edge and held circle. Two simple circles could make a numeral 8. I'm not sure when loops came into use. I think brackets, counters, and rockers were invented/discovered/mastered later in the mid-19th century. So the elaborate fancy patterns wouldn't really have come in until around the same time that they elaborated 8s got codified.

Mathman said:

I have heard it claimed that figures began by young swains showing off for their girlfriends by carving their initials in the ice, drawing hearts, etc.

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I have no idea if this is actually true, but I am choosing to believe it.

It's just too perfect NOT to be true.

** Edit: Bonus points for use of "swains" which is now my challenge word for the week. I have to work that into an everyday conversation.

Mathman said:

I have heard it claimed that figures began by young swains showing off for their girlfriends by carving their initials in the ice, drawing hearts, etc.

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I vote for this...and THAT is an art!
"...the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power. To impress babes...."
Chris who was never an artist.

noskates said:

Because it takes a great deal of athleticism and because there is competition, I would say it's a sport first and the artistry comes in in the presentation of that athleticism.

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Well, yes...NOW....but originally? No...the first person to lift a leg and do a spiral or a figure was doing an art.....Then the sports people came along and skating went to heck....

CoyoteChris said:

Edwin does make a good point. It started out as art, after all, and then became a sport.....

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Is that so? Didn’t they only add music in the mid 19th century?

Mathman said:

I actually have the same question about figures. Is tracing patterns on the ice sport or art? Here are some figures by Nikolai Panin, the only Olympic champion (1908) in "fancy figures."
Maybe school figures is something like a contest in sketching a pretty picture, but where everyone has to sketch exactly the same picture. The emphasis is on the technique of how to hold the brush, how each stroke should be executed, etc. You can give a prize for the most accurate sketch, but does that make it a sport?

Click to expand...

I would say (again) that figures are a discipline, they're about the entire body concentrating on the point where blade meets ice and demonstrating control and precision

Interestingly the world figure sport championship has revived old non-8 figures like the Swiss S or Maltese cross and 'creative' figures..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhfyWpIdypM

NaVi said:

It's practically an ice choose-your-own-adventure obstacle course.

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This is a boring discussion, so let's instead discuss this: If aspects of skating were developed to perform in front of an audience, too, what makes Figure Skating a sport, and Ballet an art?

Where is Katherine Healy when we need her...

Everything gkelly said above.

:thumbsup:

Of course it's highly highly subjective. There's no reason, for example, why ballroom dancing shouldn't be an Olympic sport by the same criterion figure skating is considered a sport.

I also think sport and art don't have to be mutually exclusive. I find creative/artistic qualities in even non judged sports. Like a breathtaking basketball dunk, or a soccer player's lob to the top corner, or between the legs hockey goal, or a high jumper in slow motion, or watching a tennis player like Venus Williams in action. Obviously figure skating is "program/performance"oriented but there's beauty across all types of sport that amplify the athletic components of those sports.

Ditto CanadianSkaterGuy. My son played rugby on a national championship team. I mention that because most people think Rugby is a horribly brutal sport and it actually doesn't have to be. A good team is almost graceful in their passing of the ball to move it downfield. The brutality comes from players who don't know the game. Steph Curry hitting a 3-point from midcourt! (Go Warriors!) a beautiful thorobred horse several lengths ahead and going for the finish line. I think any physical activity that involves competition has a certain beauty and grace to it when done well. Adding sequins and glitter probably muddies the water a bit but when you look at the hours that are spent practicing on and off the ice I don't think you can just relegate figure skating to an art.