Sport or art?

tral said:

This is a boring discussion, so let's instead discuss this: If aspects of skating were developed to perform in front of an audience, too, what makes Figure Skating a sport, and Ballet an art?

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People who wish to compete and be scored, of course! Once upon a time there was something called an ice show...it evolved and many of us remember Stars on Ice and Champions on Ice. And Galas. No judges...no scoring...just performance art. And yes, there are ballroom dance competitions. But there are dancers who prefer to dance and not be scored but just appreciated. Like Ballet.

WeakAnkles said:

Everything gkelly said above.

:thumbsup:

Of course it's highly highly subjective. There's no reason, for example, why ballroom dancing shouldn't be an Olympic sport by the same criterion figure skating is considered a sport.

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I am ready.......after all, they are introducing break dancing into the olys....

DSQ said:

Is that so? Didn’t they only add music in the mid 19th century?

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What's music have to do with it? See "mime". We tend to have a narrow view in our minds about exactly what art is. Now I am an art snob. I would use a Picasso painting for a door mat. But I will begrudgedly admit that it is art. Just like making a great meat loaf is. Art only means "man made", if you accept my art history prof's definition. Sport is easy. Competition with Judgement. The first person who strapped on a couple of bones onto their boots and invented skating was an artist not only in creating skates but in his/her performance.

gkelly said:

art?

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Exactly! It can be a sport of course, but it is most certainly art. See post #43.

gkelly said:

art?

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CoyoteChris said:

The first person who strapped on a couple of bones onto their boots and invented skating was an artist not only in creating skates but in his/her performance.

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And the second guy, who strapped on his bones and said, "I bet I can get to the big pine tree before you do," was a sportsman. :yes:

Sport or art? (Hi-ho, Silver!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwnqYkMRSyg&t=3m3s

Both.....I consider skating to be a sport of the arts.

CoyoteChris said:

People who wish to compete and be scored, of course! Once upon a time there was something called an ice show...it evolved and many of us remember Stars on Ice and Champions on Ice. And Galas. No judges...no scoring...just performance art. And yes, there are ballroom dance competitions. But there are dancers who prefer to dance and not be scored but just appreciated. Like Ballet.

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Except ballet dancers also have competitions, so no.

https://www.prixdelausanne.org/

https://www.prixdelausanne.org/category/prize-winner/

Tavi... said:

Except ballet dancers also have competitions, so no.

https://www.prixdelausanne.org/

https://www.prixdelausanne.org/category/prize-winner/

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Of course they do....as do singers, dancers, and comedians....but most dont do their trade in comps....its art. When they compete, its sport. Or, like I said, spart.

mrrice said:

Both.....I consider skating to be a sport of the arts.

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Hummm...interesting way of putting things...

Also, there are probably differences between art-oriented competitions to determine who did the best job of using the medium to produce aesthetically coherent, intellectually and/or emotionally meaningful work on the one hand, vs. a sport-oriented competition to determine who demonstrated the most technical difficulty with the best technique.

In an art competition, judges and audiences might be aware of technical quality or impressively difficult technical feats in ways that affect the artistic effect of the performance, but ultimately the main point is the artistic effect, with technique being just means to that end.

In a sport competition, judges and audiences might be aware that the technical/athletic feats in some performances add up to something artistically meaningful, more than just a collection of technical/athletic skills. But the main point of the competition is to compare technical/athletic skills, and the art is an extra.

In the case of figure skating sport competitions, I would say that the art is not extraneous and there are places to reward primarily artistic qualities in the official scoring. But most of the scoring decisions are based either on technique and athleticism alone -- including qualitative factors that make better technique more aesthetically appealing (often reflected in GOEs in the current scoring) -- or aesthetic values that also reflect greater mastery of skating technique (e.g., skating in both directions, skating in time with a rhythmic beat, etc.).


There can also be figure skating competitions that are designed more as art contests where the communication to the audience is more important than the technical details. But the ISU has not historically been in the business of holding those kind of competitions. They have happened more in the professional skating world, and in disciplines such as Theatre on Ice or Showcase competitions at amateur levels that do not have elite ISU championship level participation.

In the 1990s the ISU did start to dip its hand into hosting pro-am competitions, most recently the "medal winners" events, with one program more focused on artistic impact than on technique.

Maybe the ISU would be the right organization to build a more robust art contest type of competition structure for skaters who excel in those areas. It would surely be even more subjective than the more sport-oriented skating contests we're used to, although on average it would probably appeal to a wider range of fans. I'm not sure the IOC would embrace that kind of competition in the Olympic movement though.

When I watch Lipnitskaya, I see true art.
When I watch Trusova, I see exciting sport.

So it depends on the skater.

Figure Skating is the only sport that has a Exhibition Gala at the Olympics, so that's a more artsy outing and quite a distinction for it's tickets are amongst the most demanded.

CoyoteChris said:

What's music have to do with it? See "mime". We tend to have a narrow view in our minds about exactly what art is. Now I am an art snob. I would use a Picasso painting for a door mat. But I will begrudgedly admit that it is art. Just like making a great meat loaf is. Art only means "man made", if you accept my art history prof's definition. Sport is easy. Competition with Judgement. The first person who strapped on a couple of bones onto their boots and invented skating was an artist not only in creating skates but in his/her performance.

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Yup. Also, when confused about skaters, in order to distinguish "artists" from "sportsmen/ladies", it's very helpful to mute the music.

Turn off a Carmen soundtrack, and ignore her pretty costume, and suddenly a ballerina turns into a turnip. Meanwhile, the artistic ones will still look artistic, with music or without.

Edwin said:

Figure Skating is the only sport that has a Exhibition Gala at the Olympics, so that's a more artsy outing and quite a distinction for it's tickets are amongst the most demanded.

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Olympic gymnastics also has a gala - I mean... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxXLf9SvPu4

Casual said:

Yup. Also, when confused about skaters, in order to distinguish "artists" from "sportsmen/ladies", it's very helpful to mute the music.

Turn off a Carmen soundtrack, and ignore her pretty costume, and suddenly a ballerina turns into a turnip. Meanwhile, the artistic ones will still look artistic, with music or without.

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Reminds me of the silent movies....Oh oh...only Doris, Mathman and I know what those were. Never mind.

It's an opinion.

Edwin said:

Figure Skating is the only sport that has a Exhibition Gala at the Olympics, so that's a more artsy outing and quite a distinction for it's tickets are amongst the most demanded.

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Interesting and informative. Didn’t know galas were so well attended.

skateluvr said:

Interesting and informative. Didn’t know galas were so well attended.

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In days of yore, in our sport, I would have no issues selling my gala ticket as I am not a gala person but now I generally just give them away. At SkateAmerica Portland, 2010, the attendance was so poor that if you came to the last 2 events, ladies free and dance free on Sunday you could see the gala for free at 5 pm....and it was still poorly attended. ...good comp though...Sui and Han on the podium!