Worlds: Men's FS

eaglehelang · Mar 25, 2019

Mathman said:
To change gears for a minute, these layouts are making me think about whether Jason Brown would really benefit by getting his quad Salchow. I know he wants it for his own satisfaction, but in terms of results a 4S would still put him 20 points behind the very top guys in terms of base value, and well behind quite a few others. Suppose he did something like

3A
3A+3T
3Lz
3Lz+2T (safety valve -- put a 3T here if he missed his Axel combo)
3F+Eu+3S
3Lo
2A

OK, people would say, Who is this, Lysacek in 2010? Still, to replace the 2A with a 4S would gain only 6 points or so. Instead he could concentrate on making his triple Axels consistent and making up the difference in GOE (along with PCS). It seems like the quad Sal is high risk, not much reward.

Unfortunately, with the current quad preference, Jason needs a quad to compete for spots in the US team. If not, high likelihood USFS will send youngsters like Tomoki instead.
As has been seen, the judges seem to give higher PCS scores for higher TES, regardless of whether the skater has the artistry, skating skills or not.

Blades of Passion · Mar 25, 2019

TontoK said:
If, at this point, Jason has hopes of being a World medalist, the people who are surrounding him are doing him a great disservice.

Jason would be a World medalist right now if he had skated his program perfectly. It's actually very likely that even without a quad, a perfect program would have scored well enough here to get a medal. The judges were definitely willing to go with him on PCS and Vincent had < calls (I'm befuddled by the call Vincent got on his 3F though, that was totally wrong). Although I have to say, Jason's LP this year was his least interesting ever, and I don't think a clean skate of it without a Quad would have deserved to beat Vincent. A clean skate of a typical more exciting LP from him though, that would have been good enough.

eaglehelang · Mar 25, 2019

TontoK said:
Speaking solely as a fan, one he does not even know, I wish he'd abandon the quad attempts. Here are my reasons: (1) It won't make a difference in the hunt for medals. For that, realistically speaking, he doesn't need a quad in his program. He needs three or four. It's just the way the numbers fall out. .....

That said, and as I have professed before, he has his own goals. If this is something that he REALLY wants to achieve, then he should have at it. Practice those quads six hours a day if that's his heart's desire. But if he's doing it to please fans like me who really don't care if he has quads, then it's a waste of time.

On no 1) , it might not make a difference in medaling but it matters in getting selected to represent Team USA from next season onwards when Tomoki,Camdien move up to seniors.

Jason is certainly not doing it to please fans, he's doing it to keep himself in contention for spots. USFS would have communicated their expectations to Jason. Brian Orser said in an interview with Jackie Wong that Jason's pts will hit the roof if he has a quad.

So, unless Jason comes from a non skating country where he is the only qualified skater competing, he needs to have a quad.

I wish Jason can land one successfully next season, just so that the media will stop asking about it repeatedly. Lol

oatmella · Mar 25, 2019

I think it's unfortunate that Jason didn't have a better FS here, as he was in a good position for at least 4th. Opportunities like this can be rare.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 25, 2019

Blades of Passion said:
Not really. They are supposed to look at where takeoff starts. If you do actually look at that, as I already said, then you see the jump starts before the skate is lined up to the back board and then lands perpendicular to the board.

No it isn't. More callers are looking for excessive pre-rotation now (not standardized well enough, but still) and we have seen jumps getting called underrotated because of it. While it's true they don't yet give any special consideration for jumps with significantly less pre-rotation than the standard 1/2 turn, that's beside the point with Hanyu's 4S; I was just talking about how much quicker he starts his takeoff after the 3-turn, and confirming how he doesn't spin around the takeoff any excessive amount.

That was 0 GOE element. Forward landing that is unable to be held before he can get his back straight does not deserve bonus points (notice how Hanyu actually does get his back straight on Quad Sal despite the other landing issues). This crap is why the scores are rarely accurate. Nathan's quads in general tend to land forward on the blade and not have a really strong landing position or great flow out; most of his jumps are like that actually. He also doesn't cover much distance on his Quad Toe and the rotation is never completed entirely in the air, which again can be said of most his jumps. His GOE's are too high.

I agree that Nathan's posture on his 4F landing isn't great but even if Nathan had brought his back up straight after leaning forward it would not absolve the lean in the first place. It's like any form break or balance check. A loss of form or balance can be regained but the deduction needs to be acknowledged. Hanyu getting back upright doesn't automatically erase the lean forward and almost touching down on the ice and when he goes get his back straight he doesn't do it in a way that avoids having to drop his free foot down.

Chen doesn't have the posture/extension of Hanyu on his landings, but I disagree that they're not strong jumps. Like, that quad lutz was incredibly solid. I suppose Nathan can use more "flourish" on his landings but I don't think he's that type of skater. His quad toes don't have the most distance but they are still textbook execution with very sufficient rotation. He even added a change of edge falling leaf to his 4T and spread eagles into and out of his 4-3 ... probably just to shut people up about having no transitions. I agree though that not every jump has ideal flow - obviously his Euler series lacked it. Quite a few of Hanyu's passes in this particular FS were lacking ideal flow/speed on the exit though like the 3L, 3A on the sequence, 3T on the 3F-3T, and the Euler series which could have been problematic since his weight wasn't completely over his foot but he covered up with the spread eagle. On the whole Chen's jumps were better, although Hanyu's solo quad toe was better than either of Chen's quad toes.

Jaana · Mar 25, 2019

oatmella said:
I think it's unfortunate that Jason didn't have a better FS here, as he was in a good position for at least 4th. Opportunities like this can be rare.

Yes, this time Brown could have placed about on 4th place if he had skated a clean program (without a quad), but never on the podium with his current content... In the sp he was placed 2nd, but that only happened with a lot of help from other skaters, LOL. I´d suppose that can´t be counted to happen every year?
But is there much difference if you have 4th place or 9th place as it will not be a place on the podium? Anyway, other US skaters skated well and won 3 slots for next Worlds again.

yude · Mar 25, 2019

ElSoteroLoco said:
2- Why was it the Vice President of the Japan skating federation granting the flowers to the medalists and not the President of JSF?? I mean, what was he doing ??? Lol. Helloooooooo. It’s the world championships being held in Japan and your country’s GOAT was on the podium. Did he have something better to do??? lol.

5- I noticed so many of the audience with their hands clutched together while Yuzuru skated.... did anyone else?

2. Are you talking about Seiko Hashimoto? I have no idea why she was not there but she is also a politician, a member of the House of
Councillors, so maybe she was busy or had something more important.

5. Yuzuru said he also noticed that while he was skating :laugh:

TontoK · Mar 25, 2019

Jaana said:
Yes, this time Brown could have placed about on 4th place if he had skated a clean program (without a quad), but never on the podium with his current content... In the sp he was placed 2nd, but that only happened with a lot of help from other skaters, LOL. I´d suppose that can´t be counted to happen every year?
But is there much difference if you have 4th place or 9th place as it will not be a place on the podium? Anyway, other US skaters skated well and won 3 slots for next Worlds again.

The fact that we're now discussing how "if Jason skates clean and everyone else screws up, he's got a shot" is telling. While true, I suppose, I don't think it's a good longterm strategy for success. But hey, stranger things have happened, and maybe that scenario plays out in exactly that way at the optimal time.

Mrs. P · Mar 25, 2019

TontoK said:
The fact that we're now discussing how "if Jason skates clean and everyone else screws up, he's got a shot" is telling. While true, I suppose, I don't think it's a good longterm strategy for success. But hey, stranger things have happened, and maybe that scenario plays out in exactly that way at the optimal time.

The men’s field is such that it’s absolutely unpredictable. Also a lot happens from season to season. I doubt anyone’s strategy is hope everyone else messes up to medal.

It’s kind of hillarious we’re talking like this now cause honestly I think I can probably find some posts from like September where folks wrote Jason off to even make the world team. Or Vincent to a certain extent — nobody had him medaling, that’s for sure.

There was some worry about what would happen with Adam and Max retiring and it seems like this competition (and junior worlds) shows the us men are in good shape.

GGFan · Mar 25, 2019

Mrs. P said:
The men’s field is such that it’s absolutely unpredictable. Also a lot happens from season to season. I doubt anyone’s strategy is hope everyone else messes up to medal.

It’s kind of hillarious we’re talking like this now cause honestly I think I can probably find some posts from like September where folks wrote Jason off to even make the world team.

Yes, last year was when I felt hopeless about his career. That didn't seem like a long-term strategy to success. He then changed coaches and he's on an upward trajectory again and as a fan that's all I can ask for.

Farnaz · Mar 25, 2019

Just dropped by to add to what Interspectator said and ask ISU to give out a written statement that "Yuzuru Hanyu you do not need any transitions in your program, neither any jaw dropping entry or exit before and after your jumps. How didn't you get that we were sarcastic in the handbook of ISU rules? Most other skaters got it right a way so we explain it for you clearly. Do your jumps in the simplest way that is possible. Then, you will have 100% success rate on all your jumps and we will boost your PCS based on that. Wagatta ka?"

TontoK · Mar 25, 2019

Farnaz said:
Just dropped by to add to what Interspectator said and ask ISU to give out a written statement that "Yuzuru Hanyu you do not need any transitions in your program, neither any jaw dropping entry or exit before and after your jumps. How didn't you get that we were sarcastic in the handbook of ISU rules? Other skaters got it right a way so we explain it for you clearly. Do your jumps in the simplest way that is possible. Then, you will have 100% success rate on all your jumps and we will boost your PCS based on that. Wagatta ka?"

Keeping with your theme of how sport should be governed, it should be illegal for anyone but my favorite to win a sporting event.

GGFan · Mar 25, 2019

TontoK said:
Keeping with your theme of how sport should be governed, it should be illegal for anyone but my favorite to win a sporting event.

The shade of it all!

I'm sorry Farnaz went there as I felt that Interspectator's posts have always been respectful and specific in their complaints and suggestions. He wasn't being sarcastic or putting Nathan down

georgia · Mar 25, 2019

Now that’s what the “real experts” have to say:
“I can’t put it into perspective because I do not understand how he can go to school, train all those quads and then perform so well – AND do it like it was nothing,” Kurt Browning of Canada, a four-time world champion, said in a text message Saturday after watching Chen win his second straight world title. “He looked so calm and made winning Worlds look ‘easy.’”
And
Shae-Lynn Bourne, the Canadian ice dance world champion who choreographed Chen’s short programs the past two seasons, said she has concentrated on getting him to share his personality with the audience and the judges by expressing himself and the program’s story in every movement.

“If you start from that place, people will feel something,” Bourne said. “They won’t just see it as going from element to element.

“It’s not easy to really share something of your personality. Nathan was willing to try from the first time we worked together. Each time I see him, it comes out even more.

“It’s like it is all clicking, and because it’s all clicking, he is starting to cover all the (PCS) bases, to show the whole package. It’s not just the steps but how he does the steps, the presence in each step. It’s not just doing the jumps but how he goes in and how he lands and goes out of the jumps. It’s the ride of the blade so it doesn’t feel like he is setting up for jumps: they just arrive. It’s affecting everything about how people see him and perceive him on the ice.”

ice coverage · Mar 25, 2019

Jaana said:
… But is there much difference if you have 4th place or 9th place as it will not be a place on the podium? ...

In terms of prize money, the answer is Yes.
Fourth place is worth $19,000. Ninth place is worth $0.

In terms of World Standings points: Fourth place = 875. Ninth place = 517.

(Not to mention the possibility of differences of a subjective nature.)

Lest anyone wonder: None of this response is intended as criticism of Jason. Not at all.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 25, 2019

Blades of Passion said:
Jason would be a World medalist right now if he had skated his program perfectly. It's actually very likely that even without a quad, a perfect program would have scored well enough here to get a medal. The judges were definitely willing to go with him on PCS and Vincent had < calls (I'm befuddled by the call Vincent got on his 3F though, that was totally wrong). Although I have to say, Jason's LP this year was his least interesting ever, and I don't think a clean skate of it without a Quad would have deserved to beat Vincent. A clean skate of a typical more exciting LP from him though, that would have been good enough.

This requires a huge assumption anyways - that he did his 4S cleanly, which has yet to happen (he's still yet to even rotate cleanly internationally this year, and AFAIK he's never done a clean quad in international competition). Instead of 1.15 points (fall deduction), he would have gotten about 12 points for a clean 4S, and with an unpopped axel, and clean first 3A - in combination, he would have beaten Vincent. But those are some big hypotheticals, especially on the quad salchow.

I think that without a fully rotated, there was no way he would beat Vincent. If he did a fully rotated 4S fall, 3.85 points, 2.75 more than his existing quad attempt. And then add to that a clean 3A (8-9 points more than a 1A), and a clean 3A+3T (about 14-15 points instead of 6.29 points), that's about 27 points more plus maybe 3-4 points for PCS, which would have been enough. But it's a bit of a moot point - since his 4S attempt wasn't even close, and both axels were problematic. It's like saying Messing could have possibly medalled if he landed everything in both programs - I mean, sure... but he wasn't even close to doing that.

As it is, Brown was fortunate to place 9th (and 14th in the FS) in spite of having the 20th best TES. Ouch. At least he'll have the confidence of knowing that a clean SP can still put him in the hunt, and had he replicated his 2018 4CC FS here, he would have ended up 5th, which isn't too shabby at all. Getting 254 with a meltdown FS is still higher than some of the past GP medal scores.

temadd · Mar 25, 2019

Blades of Passion said:
Jason would be a World medalist right now if he had skated his program perfectly. It's actually very likely that even without a quad, a perfect program would have scored well enough here to get a medal. The judges were definitely willing to go with him on PCS and Vincent had < calls (I'm befuddled by the call Vincent got on his 3F though, that was totally wrong). Although I have to say, Jason's LP this year was his least interesting ever, and I don't think a clean skate of it without a Quad would have deserved to beat Vincent. A clean skate of a typical more exciting LP from him though, that would have been good enough.

Agreed. Without a quad, a perfectly clean skate should not have kept him in the medals. I normally enjoy Jason's program but his long this season is a snooze for me.

SNAKSuyun · Mar 25, 2019

RE: posts about Hanyu retiring, I present to you Roger Federer (still ranked 5th in the world at 38!), who Hanyu reminds me of in a lot of ways. Now, I'll be happy if Hanyu can even give us another 4 years to year 28 (that ankle...) but I think they both enjoy the sport too much, want to win too much, and have too much to offer to retire early.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 25, 2019

SNAKSuyun said:
RE: posts about Hanyu retiring, I present to you Roger Federer (still ranked 5th in the world at 38!), who Hanyu reminds me of in a lot of ways. Now, I'll be happy if Hanyu can even give us another 4 years to year 28 (that ankle...) but I think they both enjoy the sport too much, want to win too much, and have too much to offer to retire early.

Why would he retire? He just put out his best freeskate of the season, and one of the best freeskates all year with 3 clean quads and 2 axels. Sure, he lost by 23 points and even with a clean SP +FS might have still lost, but that score of 300.97 would have won every other competition this season.

Farnaz · Mar 25, 2019

TontoK said:
Keeping with your theme of how sport should be governed, it should be illegal for anyone but my favorite to win a sporting event.

Oh come on man. You need to chill down and not feel your favourite is threatened if someone criticizes the ISU and it's judges :scratch2:

All skaters are playing within the rules and they are not responsible for the scores they get. The point is it is the responsibility of judges to score the skaters based on the rules in their books and treat them in similar fashion. If not, they can remove these criteria from their rule books.

And for the future reference, I'm a critic of this behaviour at all competitions and regarding all skaters. It is just happened that this is after WC and Yuzuru was in this field so I used him as an example. I will replace his name with others in future competitions, I just have to learn how to say "do you understand?" in French, Chinese, Spanish,...

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