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Thread: Ice Dance Technical Meeting (requirements for 2019-20)

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaArdilla View Post
    I scanned the thread and I think it hasn't been mentioned yet that...

    ladies can now wear trousers!
    Only for Rhythm Dance, I think?

    But yes, definitely worth mentioning.



    For Free Dance:
    Touching the ice now permitted in Choreographic Character Step Sequence.
    (And still true for Choreographic Sliding Movement.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea82 View Post
    They admit that the +/-5 is not working very well in Ice Dance. It doesn't differentiate too much. They would need more +s. Halina Gordon Poltorak suggests a range from -3 to 7. Some little revisions of the chart of GOEs will be published in 2 weeks based on reports got from referees to make it easier to read the votes of the judges.
    Well if you want the judges to be able to manipulate scores, it's working BEAUTIFULLY.

    Inflating GOE and making levels relatively meaningless IS the problem. And adding three additional choreographic elements that aren't even judged by the tech panel is just the cherry on top of a cake iced with manure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerknithanson View Post
    I just looked up the definition of Jukebox musical.....Does that mean we might hear some "American Idiot," "Mamma Mia," and "Jersey Boys?!"
    It's possible, if you can find a song that fits the rhythmic requirements.

    I want someone to dance to The Shroud of Turin. I'm sure there must be a Finnstep-worthy song in that score somewhere. I'm sure of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamente Ariane View Post
    I'm no expert on rhythms but I'd think you could get a few songs from the Cole Porter catalogue (Anything Goes, Kiss Me Kate, etc) to fit Quickstep, Swing or Charleston.
    Same with the Gershwins. Kern/Hammerstein. Kern/Dorothy Fields. Rodgers and Hammerstein. There are tons of little shows from the 20s and 30s that have charming songs that would fit the rhythmic requirement beautifully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    So which musicals have a good Quickstep, Swing, or Charleston selection? That would be the first place to start in selecting music.

    Finding foxtrots for juniors will be relatively easy.
    Start with Offenbach and Gilbert & Sullivan and just keep tracking forward?

    So far I've got 'Never mind the why and wherefore', the chorus of 'When you had left our pirate fold', 'So go to him and say to him' and 'When I go out of doors', 'You understand? I think I do', and even possibly 'Take my advice when deep in debt' from G&S alone, and that's just working from memory (how anything from The Grand Duke got stuck in my memory I will never know). The Infernal Galop is in 2/4 time and will work even if it's technically a galopade/march variant, and there's plenty more from Offenbach to draw from. Die Fledermaus, The Merry Widow, etc, all have options.

    From the twenties, there's Noel Gay and a host of others - The Lambeth Walk is a quickstep in everything but name. Fred & Ginger and the Golden Age of Hollywood musicals are dripping with the stuff - from 42nd Street to Singin' in the Rain (eg Moses Supposes or Fit as a Fiddle). Lerner and Lowe - D/W got there already with Get Me to the Church on Time. Noel Coward gives you Bitter Suite - We All Wear a Green Carnation would work. Mary Poppins has Step In Time.

    More recently, you've got stuff like Helpless from Hamilton as I mentioned above, Right Hand Man from Something Rotten, you could cut sections of You're A D'Ysquith from A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder to work, and as I mentioned in the RD thread, if you really, really must do Les Miserables there's always Master of the House! It's more a question of what you can't use. And that's just English-language musicals and a bit of French and German operetta...

    And then, of course, there are the jukebox musicals. If ABBA could hide a tango in Head Over Heels I'm sure they've got a quickstep, charleston or so hidden away in a song or two from Mamma Mia and/or sequel. How about We Will Rock You, anything there? I Go To Rio from The Boy from Oz might work too.

    The trick will be getting the tracks to fit the required beats per minute and have a consistent tempo. In the same way that D/W used a jazzy instrumental recording of Get Me to the Church, I think we'll see a fair few instrumental versions of various songs, and clips from overtures.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Well if you want the judges to be able to manipulate scores, it's working BEAUTIFULLY.

    Inflating GOE and making levels relatively meaningless IS the problem. And adding three additional choreographic elements that aren't even judged by the tech panel is just the cherry on top of a cake iced with manure.
    Here I tend to think that we have problems either way and we have to determine which we prefer to deal with:

    1. If the levels matter a lot, a good amount of discretion is in the hands of the callers. This could be a good thing in that it focuses on the technical requirements of the sport but keep in mind that there are less callers than judges so perhaps it is even easier to manipulate results.

    2. If GOEs matter a lot, then the discretion is in the hands of the judges. This could be a good thing in that there are more judges than callers and outliers get averaged out so it is harder to manipulate results this way. On the other hand because you have so many judges when many of them agree to manipulate there is added legitimacy (e.g. well six people saw the same thing so it must be correct).

    Pick your poison. I think solutions may lie elsewhere. For example: enhanced sanctions for collusion or outlier scores, more use of technology to replace judging, etc. I do worry about the results at worlds though. The judges have now figured out how to make the results static again like in the 1990s and that's a bad sign.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerknithanson View Post
    I just looked up the definition of Jukebox musical.....Does that mean we might hear some "American Idiot," "Mamma Mia," and "Jersey Boys?!"
    I would LOVE a Jersey Boys SD only Jukebox musicals should not be allowed as FD

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGFan View Post
    Here I tend to think that we have problems either way and we have to determine which we prefer to deal with:

    1. If the levels matter a lot, a good amount of discretion is in the hands of the callers. This could be a good thing in that it focuses on the technical requirements of the sport but keep in mind that there are less callers than judges so perhaps it is even easier to manipulate results.

    2. If GOEs matter a lot, then the discretion is in the hands of the judges. This could be a good thing in that there are more judges than callers and outliers get averaged out so it is harder to manipulate results this way. On the other hand because you have so many judges when many of them agree to manipulate there is added legitimacy (e.g. well six people saw the same thing so it must be correct).

    Pick your poison. I think solutions may lie elsewhere. For example: enhanced sanctions for collusion or outlier scores, more use of technology to replace judging, etc. I do worry about the results at worlds though. The judges have now figured out how to make the results static again like in the 1990s and that's a bad sign.
    I'll pick the first poison. The judges aren't watching the edges closely enough. They are watching the overall impression. They aren't deducting for GOE like they are supposed to do on different elements. At least they didn't at Worlds. They ignored errors by top teams. All. Season. Long. They either didn't see them or they didn't want to see them. There were young less established teams that could have broken through in various competitions this season by besting more established ones on the technical mark, but those teams didn't break through because the levels weren't worth enough.

    It's not OK with me. It's taken us 2 decades back in time, and while I loved ice dance then, it has been much more exciting and much more of a sport since then. Much more international. We've had much more movement. And many more young people have gotten involved in the sport throughout the World. I do not want to see the sport go backward. I want to see it move forward. I adore the artistic aspects of this discipline; but because the artistry is such a huge aspect of ice dance, decision makers have to work even harder than the other disciplines to make sure the technical side is respected and balanced.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Dance View Post
    I'll pick the first poison. The judges aren't watching the edges closely enough. They are watching the overall impression. They aren't deducting for GOE like they are supposed to do on different elements. At least they didn't at Worlds. They ignored errors by top teams. All. Season. Long. They either didn't see them or they didn't want to see them. There were young less established teams that could have broken through in various competitions this season by besting more established ones on the technical mark, but those teams didn't break through because the levels weren't worth enough.

    It's not OK with me. It's taken us 2 decades back in time, and while I loved ice dance then, it has been much more exciting and much more of a sport since then. Much more international. We've had much more movement. And many more young people have gotten involved in the sport throughout the World. I do not want to see the sport go backward. I want to see it move forward. I adore the artistic aspects of this discipline; but because the artistry is such a huge aspect of ice dance, decision makers have to work even harder than the other disciplines to make sure the technical side is respected and balanced.
    I generally agree with this and I think in general the callers were very strict with the patterns all season . . except at Worlds. Your point is taken that the judges have been generous with GOEs all season long but being at the caller's mercy also leaves vulnerable to manipulation at the biggest competitions. Part of the problem too is that as human beings get more used to a system, they get better at manipulating it. The judges in some sense will always lean toward wanting to manipulate results.

    I don't mean that necessarily in a pejorative way. I think human beings (i.e. judges) want to make the "right" decision. They don't necessarily want to just let the numbers decide things. They want to have an American team and a Russian team on the podium for example to please all of the powerful parties and spread the wealth. I some sense the old system was more open about this. In order to prevent manipulation of these systems you have to constantly stay on top of things and make changes as problems develop. This is a never ending battle ultimately.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramurphy2005 View Post
    I completely agree that we'll probably be saved from a deluge of Moulin Rouge and Phantom due to the pattern dance requirements.

    I'm sure we'll see a few My Fair Lady programs.

    I've had Guys and Dolls in my head for much of the afternoon, and I think it could really work for someone.
    I totally see Guignard/Fabbri or Fournier-Beaudry/Sorensen doing charming and memorable 'Guys & Dolls' RD.

  11. #51
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    I am quite discouraged by how this new scoring system worked or was applied this season - less attention to levels, some weak/lenient calling, inconsistency in this, very blandant GOE inflation creating 'groups' of skaters and often making up for lack of refinement in levels, glueing PCS and TES categories together...

    I think what is needed is BALANCE between several things: levels (by either increasing point gap between them, appropriately to GOE scale as this season shown that lower element can raise above better by GOE and/or more diligent calling), quality reward by GOE (definitely cancel reputational giving out of GOE depending on team's fed/rank...) and actual quality of a program AND performance (paying closer and more diligent attention to PCS categories and their representation in actual performance seen in real time). Last season was for me a tiring one in seeing tying all these things together and trying to fit a team in one box instead of recognizing highlights and lower scores on lacks.

    And if they want to expand GOE scale, for God's sake - expand it on elements worth the most in BV like step sequences, not on these new weird categories that a lot of teams use as meaningless fillers to just gain points (choreo step sequence/slide/twizzle or spin movements). Make it even & balanced in context of overall execution result.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameFace View Post
    And if they want to expand GOE scale, for God's sake - expand it on elements worth the most in BV like step sequences, not on these new weird categories that a lot of teams use as meaningless fillers to just gain points (choreo step sequence/slide/twizzle or spin movements).
    Ice dance welfare for the already well-reputed and/or athletes with the "right" coaches. I like many of the choreo elements this season. I like that they reflect the music. I even like the idea of having them be real highlights rather than "filler." But with very few exceptions, many of the teams that received higher GOE for them didn't do anything exceptional with them--certainly not with all of their choreographic elements. I agree that the GOE for them should not be worth as much as for the difficult elements. These shouldn't be able to outweigh the skills of athletes who can actually perform a complex footwork sequence or nail a compulsory pattern.

  13. #53
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    ISU Communication about next season's requirements has been published

    https://isu.org/figure-skating/rules...tion-2239/file

  14. #54
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    Musicals and operas for the rhythm dance, correct? Prepare for a lot of POTOs.

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    Would music from "Cats" work in any capacity? It has great songs... I can imagine a couple of teams doing this one....

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