Could judges be replaced by computers in giving TES score? | Golden Skate

Could judges be replaced by computers in giving TES score?

TT_Fin

The second worst besserwisser in the world
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Jan 29, 2007
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Computer graphics are already quite developed today. What do you think, could it be possible to give scores for jumps by calculating with computer, how high, long and fast jumps are? In spins computer would calculate the edge and amount of rotations.

Please do not take this very seriously, but what do you think, would it be possible?
 

hanyuufan5

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May 19, 2018
No. The judges were skaters themselves, right? Nothing can replace a human being looking at a jump and thinking, "I would break my behind if I tried that, and every landing I ever did in my life combined wasn't that good."
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
I think that the scoring process could be revised to take into account measurable data such as jump height, length, and speed; jump rotation; spin speed; ice coverage; average and maximum skating speed; and other measurable details, perhaps including correct edges for jump takeoffs and landings or step sequence turns.

But there is more to what makes "good skating" than simply measurable data. I expect most skaters or most fans would find a sport scored entirely on measurable data to be much less satisfying to participate in or to watch.

At best, perhaps including objective measurements of those qualities that can be objectively measured would free up more time and mental focus for judges to concentrate on the less measurable aspects of each performance.
 

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom
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May 10, 2010
So long as we have the GOE system, the answer will be a hard no to complete automation of judging. It will, at best, be computer-assisted human judging. As a reminder, here are the six bullet points for jump GOE:

1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence)
2) good take-off and landing
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination)
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) very good body position from take-off to landing
6) element matches the music

#1 I can see this being assisted very easily with computers, with raw data and real-time ranking of height, speed, and distance relative to the rest of the field and to data history.
#2 About half here. Speed going in and out of a jump can be computer assisted, but a skid or toe slip on the take-off or the type of error and how much to deduct is something a human judge can do much better.
#3 "Effortless" is completely determined by human judgment.
#4 The computer can detect steps, but only a human can say whether something is "unexpected" or "creative".
#5 Maybe a bit here for good body position for detecting any wraps or leg separation, but again, a "good" body position is mainly something only a human judge can determine.
#6 A computer would need to detect the beat and maybe phrasing of an element to the music, but that's tough to code, and with musical sections that don't have a clear beat, "musicality" and "phrasing" is hard to determine without a human judge.

So in summary, a computer would help about 25-35% in determining GOE overall.

That said, where the computer would help tremendously is in detecting edge changes, pre-rotations, and under-rotations since the human eye is TERRIBLE at this. Jump placement, angle, and bias can all seep into these types of calls - I mean, we even have the "!" call where the edge change is unsure. Having several cameras around the rink to determine blade rotation and edge angle would make much more sense and assist the technical panel significantly.
 

VenusHalley

Final Flight
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Jan 6, 2018
No. The judges were skaters themselves, right? Nothing can replace a human being looking at a jump and thinking, "I would break my behind if I tried that, and every landing I ever did in my life combined wasn't that good."

Or in this years case: "awwww, it is so hard, I could never do so well! Let's not call anything and shower em in GOEs <3 <3 <3"
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
That said, where the computer would help tremendously is in detecting edge changes, pre-rotations, and under-rotations since the human eye is TERRIBLE at this.

This is so true, and is the cause of 50% of all the fights we have on this board about the judging. (The other 50% is, How can Clutzy Carl get higher PCSs than Artistic Andy???!!!)
 

Edwin

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Jan 5, 2019
This is so true, and is the cause of 50% of all the fights we have on this board about the judging. (The other 50% is, How can Clutzy Carl get higher PCSs than Artistic Andy???!!!)

Like in gymnastics, judges in figure skating come from all over the world, all of them having passed their judging exams at the required level, and taking the compulsory refreshing courses.
How many of these judges are active in coaching? And how many are coaching at world class rinks, where they work daily with skaters that are capable of performing most of the elements in the code?
Passing your exam judging jumps on video is substantially different from coaching a skater to perform those jumps in your daily job.

Axelcam is nice for the TV spectators, but not sophisticated or accurate enough yet.

I am not opposed to computer assisted evaluation and scoring, but the system has to be 100% accurate and reliable. We don't want technical delays or the inevitable breakdown when judges have to do it all themselves again and objectivity suffers.
Because, inevitably, human judges will get lazy and less observant with machine help.
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
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Jul 28, 2003
Well the old days of judges getting down on their hands and knees to examine figures, and young skaters holding up placement values on large cards (6.0 system) are certainly long gone! The judges now have a lot of technology to help them with their difficult task of judging but no, I don't think they will be replaced by robots or computers, there is still the human element of figure skating. I don't think a computer could decide which free dance or pair free skate appeals to it. This is where the "apples to oranges" part of judging comes in, for that you still need humans! Good question though.
 

Alexz

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Mar 29, 2016
Country
United-States
Edge call, PR and UR - robot judging. Levels and GoE - human eye. This will be perfect.
 

Casual

On the Ice
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Jan 26, 2018
They would probably do a better job than the judges so maybe, tbh.

Since biased judges are cheating left and right, it would be brilliant if they could be replaced by computers...

The only problem is, you know what will happen next, right? :laugh:
 

silver.blades

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Jan 4, 2007
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Canada
Like in gymnastics, judges in figure skating come from all over the world, all of them having passed their judging exams at the required level, and taking the compulsory refreshing courses.
How many of these judges are active in coaching? And how many are coaching at world class rinks, where they work daily with skaters that are capable of performing most of the elements in the code?
Passing your exam judging jumps on video is substantially different from coaching a skater to perform those jumps in your daily job.

Not sure about other places in the world, but judges in Canada are not certified coaches (although that doesn't mean they aren't working with skaters as consultants and such). Skate Canada doesn't let their coaches take judging training and I assume judges can't train as coaches. Maybe at the higher levels, they'll relax the rules, but I tried to attend judges training after certifying as a coach and I was told no.
 

Edwin

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Not sure about other places in the world, but judges in Canada are not certified coaches (although that doesn't mean they aren't working with skaters as consultants and such). Skate Canada doesn't let their coaches take judging training and I assume judges can't train as coaches. Maybe at the higher levels, they'll relax the rules, but I tried to attend judges training after certifying as a coach and I was told no.

Thanks for clarifying. Perhaps I was thinking too much about gymnastics here. Figure skating isn't that widespread over the world compared to gymnastics, where many top trainers are also qualified as Olympic brevet judges.
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
Figure skating judges are required to be "eligible" individuals.

Coaches are not.

Although the eligibility rules are less stringent than in the days of strict amateurism, there are distinctions maintained.

In the US, at least, it is not allowed to judge and coach (beyond beginner levels) at the same time.
 

Blades of Passion

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People who don't understand technical elements shouldn't be evaluating the GOE though. There really needs to be a separation of Technical Element and Program Component judges. Both are being judged wrong, so let's have them focus on one side at a time, and then maybe the details will be paid more attention to.
 

GGFan

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Nov 9, 2013
I'm by no means an expert on computers (I barely know anything), but we may be underestimating what they would be able to do. We're looking this as a coding challenge, but the way that computers have handled complex processes is to teach themselves and improve over time. Given enough time and inputs of programs perhaps based on measurable aspects (speed, height, etc.) computers would be able to teach themselves to reach a more accurate score than human beings. That may sound crazy but computers do not learn the same way we do and if what we're looking for is the elimination of human bias and collusion between judges it could be an acceptable alternative.

I think the real impediment to any of this happening in the near future is that there's no real money or reason for doing so. However, things change and as computers advance and technologies cheapen it could become a reality some day.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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I kind of enjoy the touch that human nature gives to figure skating judging :eek::
 
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