2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

Lipea said:

I meant the team into Worlds. If you actually watched the competitions and not just looked at the medal table, you would be ashamed even to mention Europeans. She really did quite bad the entire season except for the very first Senior-B competition. Even her Worlds LP was definitely not the one to re-watch and again GROSSLY overscored. If they sent Tukt instead, with the performances she gave on the team event she would've not only won Gold, but would do it fairly.

Click to expand...

this seems a little over dramatic. alina was a little overscored as any OGM would be. are you suggesting (when you say that her win wasn't "fair") that she was overscored by 13 points??? i don't think any sort of overscoring grossly or otherwise could give you that sort of a margin lol.

the rest of your complaints about alina/zhenya also seem like huge exaggerations. like does alina have the best posture? no, it's something that she should work on, but she's not "far from good" lmao. i don't think it does liza or sofia any good to say that they're fabulous/much better when they're clearly... not. unless our standards for fabulous and much better are very different it kinda just seems like another exaggeration

sx98423 said:

this seems a little over dramatic. alina was a little overscored as any OGM would be. are you suggesting (when you say that her win wasn't "fair") that she was overscored by 13 points??? i don't think any sort of overscoring grossly or otherwise could give you that sort of a margin lol.

the rest of your complaints about alina/zhenya also seem like huge exaggerations. like does alina have the best posture? no, it's something that she should work on, but she's not "far from good" lmao. i don't think it does liza or sofia any good to say that they're fabulous/much better when they're clearly... not. unless our standards for fabulous and much better are very different it kinda just seems like another exaggeration

Click to expand...

Exactly my opinion.

I don't like Sofia's jumps because she's hunched over. Probably my least favourite jumps from this year's team, despite her being with Mishin and considering how nice Liza's jumps are.
Liza has to improve more as well but I have mad respect for her for still sticking around and working her issues out when it's so easy to be buried in the Russian ladies field.

Reddi said:

Different. Test skates are currently planned to be held at Luzhniki Small Arena. The very same arena that has been so well documented in Yuri on Ice.

Click to expand...

Cool!

Lipea said:

It's funny how you put as examples Medvedeva and Zagitova - the most grossly overscored Russian skaters who, it were a fair game not based on reputation or other sponsors, should be not selected to the team. All of the above people you mentioned - Tuktamysheva, Samodurova, Tarusina, Gubanova, not mentioning forgotten Sakhanovich, and not even known skaters like Guliakova, Vasilieva, and Talalaikina were, from purely objective point, superior than these two overhyped olympic stars. But, of course, fans come after glories of victory, so we just assume they are better based on their medal record and bubbled up scores.

Click to expand...

I don't know where you find it funny.Don't get me wrong.The reason I put Medvedeva and Zagitova as examples is they can stand out on their own unlike Sofia.Because she only has consistency, she always needs to wait for other skater's mistakes.Silmilar case was Satoko Miyahara.The difference is she had not only consistency but also fabulous spins and SS.

Looks like some people think Sofia has musicalty,artistry like that.Again Judges do not think same as you.It's all shown in her Pcs.I can see her upper body and facial expressions.
But what you forget is the name of this Sports is Figure skating.Neither dancing queen nor dancing festival.The most basic and important thing is skating skill.Without that you can't expect judges to give high Pcs.
I know some people will say It's same for Medvedeva and Zagitova.No It's not.They are OS and OG.They have more complicated programs.

What I feel bad for Sofia is she still is young and has potential.But with Mishin,I'm sure there will be no improvement on her skating skill.Look at Tuktamysheva.I respect her for jumping technique.One thing I am disappointed is her SS.I remember she made a sinior debut in 2011.Compare her debut season and now,there is no improvement on her SS.Kind of same style of programs.I was impressed Medeveva tried something new.Such a brave girl

Because of her lack of SS,even she does 3a,as we saw at gpf she cannot beat Zagitova who is doing 3lutz3lo (no quad no 3a).Mishin definitely knows what's their problem what should be fixed.He is living in past.He won't or can't teach teach them how to improve SS.
People say Tutberidze is like cruel ,evil etc.Imo that doesn't matter.Skaters need a coach who is competent,knows how to fix their weakness,not ignoring that.

Would like to correct you in one point: eteri does not necessarly correct weaknesses but rather hides them very effectively.

I adore Sofia, but I agree she has many weaknesses as a skater. Weak jumps (though rotated and consistent - very weak on GOE), weak SS, not great choreo, etc.

Considering the importance of consistency and momentum in earning increasing PCS, I was shocked to see that she did not really benefit from escalating PCS throughout the season, especially at Worlds after winning the European Championship. The judges just don't like her.

She's working with Benoit this summer, so I think she will improve in presentation. But she won't make it to Euros/Worlds again with the amount of depth in Russia. She could end up at the GPF again though.

andromache said:

I adore Sofia, but I agree she has many weaknesses as a skater. Weak jumps (though rotated and consistent - very weak on GOE), weak SS, not great choreo, etc.

Considering the importance of consistency and momentum in earning increasing PCS, I was shocked to see that she did not really benefit from escalating PCS throughout the season, especially at Worlds after winning the European Championship. The judges just don't like her.

She's working with Benoit this summer, so I think she will improve in presentation. But she won't make it to Euros/Worlds again with the amount of depth in Russia. She could end up at the GPF again though.

Click to expand...

tbh, now that i look at it, i feel that at euros she was sort of overscored.
The FS was a disapointment, with tons of bad skates from the top contenders, and then, Sonia came out and skated clean and on fire, and ofc judges gave her all the points.

on the other hand, i feel that, at GPF and Worlds she got underscored for being #3 russian lady, and ends up not getting the fed bonus points, lets call it like this, to keep the top placements more evenly distributed.

andromache said:

I adore Sofia, but I agree she has many weaknesses as a skater. Weak jumps (though rotated and consistent - very weak on GOE), weak SS, not great choreo, etc.

Considering the importance of consistency and momentum in earning increasing PCS, I was shocked to see that she did not really benefit from escalating PCS throughout the season, especially at Worlds after winning the European Championship. The judges just don't like her.

She's working with Benoit this summer, so I think she will improve in presentation. But she won't make it to Euros/Worlds again with the amount of depth in Russia. She could end up at the GPF again though.

Click to expand...

Oh really? I hadn't seen that. I know that Averbukh did her FS.

Lipea said:

Lines compliment rather went to Tsurskaya who truly had the best ones. Due to the visual nature shorter girls generally don't look like they have great lines on ice (Satoko and Kostornaya are, perhaps, exceptions). But Liza has great arms and her face expressions are exquisite. And her positions are great - look at any picture of Liza from her performances - her postures, expressions, - it's meaningful, comparing with, for example, Alina, who is far from good in this department.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you've ever danced or done any sort of artistic sport before, but that is not how lines work at all. In dance (and skating as the sport takes many movements from dance), there are many shorter girls that have much nicer lines than much taller ones. I'm not sure you're understanding what lines mean, in this context.

SnowWhite said:

Oh really? I hadn't seen that. I know that Averbukh did her FS.

Click to expand...

I wouldnt be so eager, Mishin skaters always work with people, and it ends up being same old Mishin style anyways.
grumpy because no hopes =(((

Payako said:

I don't know where you find it funny.Don't get me wrong.The reason I put Medvedeva and Zagitova as examples is they can stand out on their own unlike Sofia.Because she only has consistency, she always needs to wait for other skater's mistakes.Silmilar case was Satoko Miyahara.The difference is she had not only consistency but also fabulous spins and SS.

Looks like some people think Sofia has musicalty,artistry like that.Again Judges do not think same as you.It's all shown in her Pcs.I can see her upper body and facial expressions.
But what you forget is the name of this Sports is Figure skating.Neither dancing queen nor dancing festival.The most basic and important thing is skating skill.Without that you can't expect judges to give high Pcs.
I know some people will say It's same for Medvedeva and Zagitova.No It's not.They are OS and OG.They have more complicated programs.

What I feel bad for Sofia is she still is young and has potential.But with Mishin,I'm sure there will be no improvement on her skating skill.Look at Tuktamysheva.I respect her for jumping technique.One thing I am disappointed is her SS.I remember she made a sinior debut in 2011.Compare her debut season and now,there is no improvement on her SS.Kind of same style of programs.I was impressed Medeveva tried something new.Such a brave girl[emoji38]

Because of her lack of SS,even she does 3a,as we saw at gpf she cannot beat Zagitova who is doing 3lutz3lo (no quad no 3a).Mishin definitely knows what's their problem what should be fixed.He is living in past.He won't or can't teach teach them how to improve SS.
People say Tutberidze is like cruel ,evil etc.Imo that doesn't matter.Skaters need a coach who is competent,knows how to fix their weakness,not ignoring that.

Click to expand...

Eteri doesn't really fix the weaknesses she is just good at hiding them in the programms.

SnowWhite said:

Oh really? I hadn't seen that. I know that Averbukh did her FS.

Click to expand...

I believe I saw on Instagram that she and Bradie are both working together with Benoit and Mishin at a camp of some kind? I don't know the details beyond that .

Although moriel is totally right that it probably won't make a difference who does the choreo, because Mishin is Mishin.

IMO, Mishin and Stephane Lambiel should become co-coaches together. Mishin doesn't have what it takes to train a "complete" skater in this era, and Lambiel seems bad at teaching jumps. Together they could train a well-rounded skater.

Payako said:

I don't know where you find it funny.Don't get me wrong.The reason I put Medvedeva and Zagitova as examples is they can stand out on their own unlike Sofia.Because she only has consistency, she always needs to wait for other skater's mistakes.Silmilar case was Satoko Miyahara.The difference is she had not only consistency but also fabulous spins and SS.

Looks like some people think Sofia has musicalty,artistry like that.Again Judges do not think same as you.It's all shown in her Pcs.I can see her upper body and facial expressions.
But what you forget is the name of this Sports is Figure skating.Neither dancing queen nor dancing festival.The most basic and important thing is skating skill.Without that you can't expect judges to give high Pcs.
I know some people will say It's same for Medvedeva and Zagitova.No It's not.They are OS and OG.They have more complicated programs.

What I feel bad for Sofia is she still is young and has potential.But with Mishin,I'm sure there will be no improvement on her skating skill.Look at Tuktamysheva.I respect her for jumping technique.One thing I am disappointed is her SS.I remember she made a sinior debut in 2011.Compare her debut season and now,there is no improvement on her SS.Kind of same style of programs.I was impressed Medeveva tried something new.Such a brave girl��

Because of her lack of SS,even she does 3a,as we saw at gpf she cannot beat Zagitova who is doing 3lutz3lo (no quad no 3a).Mishin definitely knows what's their problem what should be fixed.He is living in past.He won't or can't teach teach them how to improve SS.
People say Tutberidze is like cruel ,evil etc.Imo that doesn't matter.Skaters need a coach who is competent,knows how to fix their weakness,not ignoring that.

Click to expand...

I strongly disagree with all these negative takes on Mishin.

Mishin is probably the only top coach who teaches a reliable technique in Russia, a technique that can last post puberty.

I'd like to remind you that according to most people on the internet and in Russia, Sofia was essentially doomed 3 years ago already cause she didn't have the best jumps, she didn't have the most difficult programs,...

2 seasons ago she beated both Tarakanova and Kostornaya at JGP Zagreb and Italy against all odds.

Last season she beated OG Alina Zagitova at the Europeans, and she is now the current European champion.

She HAS musicality and a great presence on the ice, even with watered down choreographies, she can sell the program better than Eteri's skaters which are all business all the time, no emotions whatsoever. That's why i think, while Mishin skaters are not as polished, they are definitely more authentic on the ice.

Performance and Interpretation are criteria for the PCS, it's not just skating skills.

Her other quality is consistency, which i'd say it's extremely important in this era because so many skaters literally come and go, they don't last more than 2-3 seasons, if you manage to stay in the mix, your day will come, and with the 3A she is competitive technically.

Yes Tutberidze is more successful with ladies right now, i'm the first to admit that, but it doesn't mean all other coaches are trash.

Great idea about Mishin and Lambiel, I have thought about it too. But then was shocked to learn that Lambiel has actually choreographed for Liza in the past. As Moriel said, you wouldn‘t know from the program. I think Mishin is incredibly stubborn and he just doesn‘t believe in transitions and modern programs. It is all about the jumps and skaters have to be concentrated on them; he probably views everything else as unnecessary distractions. So, regardless of the choreographer, his skaters are stuck with Mishin‘s choreo. What a character he is! i actually quite like him.

Tolstoj said:

Mishin is the probably the only top coach who teaches a reliable technique in Russia, a technique that can last post puberty.

Click to expand...

Liza didn't have some miraculous technique that would survive till now, she had to gain her jumps (among practically everything) back before last season. It's great that she started to work hard and became competitive on the top again, but definitely not because "a reliable technique that lasted through puberty".

Autumn Leaves said:

Great idea about Mishin and Lambiel, I have thought about it too. But then was shocked to learn that Lambiel has actually choreographed for Liza in the past. As Moriel said, you wouldn‘t know from the program. I think Mishin is incredibly stubborn and he just doesn‘t believe in transitions and modern programs. It is all about the jumps and skaters have to be concentrated on them; he probably views everything else as unnecessary distractions. So, regardless of the choreographer, his skaters are stuck with Mishin‘s choreo. What a character he is! i actually quite like him.

Click to expand...

The thing is while Mishin hammer down choreography like no others (i don't think it's because he doesn't believe but more for consistency sake), he still sends his skaters to great international choreographers, meaning they can still work on the interpretation, skating skills, etc. and they can work on different styles of programs and music.

While if you stick with one choreographer all the time, you'll only see his/her perspective.

The problem is from a business perspective, it's better the second approach because ISU unfortunately doesn't care about these things, so you can save money and time sticking with one choreographer.

flanker said:

Liza didn't have some miraculous technique that wouls survive till now, she had to gain her jumps (among practically everything) back before last season. It's great that she started to work hard and became competitive ont he top again, but definitely not because "a reliable technique that lasted through puberty".

Click to expand...

But the whole team worked on it.

Liza is one example from Mishin who is still very competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty, she "survived".

All the other russian coaches have zero ladies skaters still competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty.

I'd like people to reflect more on that.

Tolstoj said:

But the whole team worked on it.

Liza is one example from Mishin who is still very competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty, she "survived".

All the other russian coaches have zero ladies skaters still competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty.

I'd like people to reflect more on that.

Click to expand...

A very interesting logic you have there...

Japan has only 1 girl past 20 who is competitive internationally, Satoko, coached by Hamada. The rest of the Japanese coaches have 0 skaters, who are past 20 and are competitive internationally.
So that probably means Hamada is the only Japanese coach, who’s capable of teaching a sustainable technique that can last through puberty, and all others aren’t capable of doing that.

nussnacker said:

A very interesting logic you have there...

Japan has only 1 girl past 20 who is competitive internationally, Satoko, coached by Hamada. The rest of the Japanese coaches have 0 skaters, who are past 20 and are competitive internationally.
So that probably means Hamada is the only Japanese coach, who’s capable of teaching a sustainable technique that can last through puberty, and all others aren’t capable of doing that.

Click to expand...

2 girls in August with Mai Mihara, and Nakano's skaters seems to have a very reliable technique.

Anyway it's a bit different because the wave of great japanese ladies skaters started later than the russians, only 3 years ago, before that there was basically only Asada and some random good result from Hongo, Suzuki, Miyahara.

But you're bringing a good point, it's an interesting watch, how many of these skaters will last. I wouldn't say Hamada's technique is that good either if you want to last for 10 years: even more than Eteri/Sergei, her technique is all about the fast rotation, you can see Miyahara is struggling much more than in the past, Marin Honda also was struggling and had to leave.

Tolstoj said:

But the whole team worked on it.

Liza is one example from Mishin who is still very competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty, she "survived".

All the other russian coaches have zero ladies skaters still competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty.

I'd like people to reflect more on that.

Click to expand...

Yep, we do.
Btw, you should list coaches who have ladies skaters still competitive internationally in the 20s post puberty.

Top 20 SB from last year by year of birth.
1996 Tuktamysheva, Bell
1998 Tennell, Miyahara
1999 Medvedeva, Mihara, Hendrickx
2000 Tursynbaeva, Sakamoto, Sakhanovich
2002 Zagitova, Kihira, Samodurova, Yamashita, Cui
2003 Kostornaia, Lim, Tarusina
2004 Trusova, Shcherbakova

There is literally 2 skaters 20 years old, and 2 skaters that are older than 20.
Out of 20 skaters.


That is (1).


Now, (2). Since when skating past 20 is a good thing?
I said it multiple times, and I say it again. While I will miss my favs, I would rather see them win everything early and retire at 18. If i had a kid and it skated at elite level, I would want my child to leave sport around 18.
Why? First, injuries. It is something that builds up, and becomes worse over time. Not only that, but it is something that won't truly heal. It is something that will return when the skater gets older. All those fractures, injuries and so on will return as pains and health issues when the skater is 40+. I want my favourite skaters to be healthy adults, and not be like Plushenko. I want them to leave sport while they are fairly young and things heal better, and before they accumulated too many injuries.
Second, life. I don't want my favourite skaters to have coaching as the only option. Not everybody is made to be a coach, and not all coaches are successful. Getting a good education in a different while skating at elite level is not trivial. Getting a good education when you are 25 or 30 is also not trivial - all your friends have jobs and families already, and you are the only one studying with no money and so on. It breaks my heart when I read how Bruno Massot struggles financially, or how Serafima Sakhanovich struggles finacially. Leaving elite sport early, after winning your share of medals and earning some $$$, with the option to earn some more in shows, to take any direction you want sounds like a great option to me. That is what I want for my favs.
I really see 0 reasons for long careers in ELITE sport to be a good thing.