2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating | Page 52 | Golden Skate

2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Just from reading the last few pages of this thread - it seems like North American and Russian cultures have EXTREMELY DIFFERENT ideas of what does or doesn't constitute child abuse. Which is why this debate over Eteri's training will go on and on forever.

North Americans believe that Eteri's methods could be child abuse (though we obviously aren't sure since we do not have firsthand knowledge). Eteri's methods would probably be considered abusive in the US or Canada, just like we now recognize that the Karolyis were abusive. Any coaches with a similar environment would have to keep it very private or risk outrage or getting shut down.

To Russians, Eteri's methods are not abusive. They are fine. They make children into tough athletes. Training injured, limiting water intake, etc. - that's what it takes to succeed. High risk = high reward. If the children want to do it, they do it, and since the children want to win, it is not abuse.

These are just fundamentally different understandings of 1) how much control/autonomy a child should have over what they want to do - i.e., should a child be able to decide to take risks for success (Russian POV), or should adults be responsible for stopping children from risking their physical/mental health (NA POV)? And 2) what is or isn't child abuse.

I do not want to make uninformed generalizations about people's nationalities. I am just stating the impression that I get from reading these posts from all the different perspectives.
 
Last edited:

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Training injured, limiting water intake, etc. - that's what it takes to succeed.

You speak as if this was related exclusively on russian sport. When I was mentioning the "cookbooks", those were in fact US skating fed manuals about food and water intakes. Don't claim there are no limitations about those things in sport anywhere else.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
You speak as if this was related exclusively on russian sport. When I was mentioning the "cookbooks", those were in fact US skating fed manuals about food and water intakes. Don't claim there are no limitations about those things in sport anywhere else.

I'm sure they are! But they are not as public as interviews coming from skaters.

Abuse/not-so-great practices exist in all sports federations, I am sure. But some places (like the US), it is hidden because the public wouldn't like it.

ETA: I want to add that I am not sure about the cookbook you are citing. I am curious to what extent it limits food/liquid intake, and if it comes from a professional sports nutritionist. There are healthy ways to lose/maintain weight and not-healthy ways.
 
Last edited:

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
I do think most of the Russian parents don't want to realise their own ambitions through their children, spending tens of thousands dollars on extra lessons, extra training each year to advance their child. Hoping one day their child will strike it big and turn into a millionaire and pay them back.

AFAIK, almost all of the Russian kids and teens skate for their own pleasure and satisfaction, without extreme parental pressure and worry over all that money spend on them.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
I used the translation that was offered by a native speaker and great fan of Eteri. If it is incorrect, I do apologize for that. However, I still stand with my original point that weighing girls several times a day and restricting their food and water intake is wrong. Especially since the daily weighing and stressing about a few grams isn‘t happening only during the Olympic season, if it affected skaters like Polina Shuboderova who never even came close to making any Olympic team whatsoever.



I didn‘t mean this as “she is not successful“ obviously. She is. Maybe I used grammar wrongly here, English is not my mother tongue after all. What I wanted to say is:

She might be successful BUT this still does not make her methods right. I don‘t know how to explain it, maybe a native speaker can educate me about this.

That‘s beside the point, though.

About your question on Kanysheva. Well, I think parents would let their children join if they realized how much they want the success and if they were told by a coach that such methods are the only way to be successful. That‘s why it is so important that students speak up that this is not right and should not happen.

About which skaters I won‘t enjoy. Well there are some whose style I prefer and whose I just don‘t really like. I think it‘s no secret that I was not a fan at all of Alina‘s FS this year, or that I simply do not particularly like Sasha‘s style of skating. This doesn‘t mean I don‘t like them as persons or don‘t cheer for them, I do. And it‘s pretty much beside the point anyway.

You think she is the only tough coach out there? All skaters have to limit things in order to be elite. We may never agree on EG.

But we do agree on something. Nastya G In your earlier post I agree with you about Gubanova. I am surprised EG never brought her in. Her skating is divine and so beautiful as is she. I have to remember how really good she is at 16 even though there are many others her age and younger that have surpassed her at this point. I think Nastya is special but rusfed may not agree. I would love to see her have a breakthrough next season but it will be hard because rusfed has shafted her in the past and she may get 1 GP assignment next season. Also is she a junior or senior? She should not skate juniors next season because she did not this season. Bur skating both may give her valuable expereinces as a16 year old. I am hoping she is used to Moscow now but moving from St. Petersburg to Moscow at 15 was probably hard for her. Maybe like moving from Tampa Bay to New York City! Thats a tough change. If she only gets 1 GP assiignment it will be hard for her to have a big season. Buyanova needs one of her girls to get good results. Maybe 2 girls. Buyanova is in a slump. She needs a good season too.
 

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Just from reading the last few pages of this thread - it seems like North American and Russian cultures have EXTREMELY DIFFERENT ideas of what does or doesn't constitute child abuse. Which is why this debate over Eteri's training will go on and on forever.

North Americans believe that Eteri's methods could be child abuse (though we obviously aren't sure since we do not have firsthand knowledge). Eteri's methods would probably be considered abusive in the US or Canada, just like we now recognize that the Karolyis were abusive. Any coaches with a similar environment would have to keep it very private or risk outrage or getting shut down.

To Russians, Eteri's methods are not abusive. They are fine. They make children into tough athletes. Training injured, limiting water intake, etc. - that's what it takes to succeed. High risk = high reward. If the children want to do it, they do it, and since the children want to win, it is not abuse.

These are just fundamentally different understandings of 1) how much control/autonomy a child should have over what they want to do - i.e., should a child be able to decide to take risks for success (Russian POV), or should adults be responsible for stopping children from risking their physical/mental health (NA POV)? And 2) what is or isn't child abuse.

I do not want to make uninformed generalizations about people's nationalities. I am just stating the impression that I get from reading these posts from all the different perspectives.

So, I understood you correctly, that the next time I see this phrase "Eteri's methods", then I should be understood as "Russian methods"? (Because from the point of view of the Russian mentality, Eteri does not do anything wrong)

But if so, on what basis do people from other cultures and mentalities teach us how to treat our children? Why do you insult us by saying these word -"abuse"?
 

Fluture

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
You think she is the only tough coach out there? All skaters have to limit things in order to be elite. We may never agree on EG.

But we do agree on something. Nastya G In your earlier post I agree with you about Gubanova. I am surprised EG never brought her in. Her skating is divine and so beautiful as is she. I have to remember how really good she is at 16 even though there are many others her age and younger that have surpassed her at this point. I think Nastya is special but rusfed may not agree. I would love to see her have a breakthrough next season but it will be hard because rusfed has shafted her in the past and she may get 1 GP assignment next season. Also is she a junior or senior? She should not skate juniors next season because she did not this season. Bur skating both may give her valuable expereinces as a16 year old. I am hoping she is used to Moscow now but moving from St. Petersburg to Moscow at 15 was probably hard for her. Maybe like moving from Tampa Bay to New York City! Thats a tough change. If she only gets 1 GP assiignment it will be hard for her to have a big season. Buyanova needs one of her girls to get good results. Maybe 2 girls. Buyanova is in a slump. She needs a good season too.

I don‘t think she‘s the only tough coach out there. It‘s just that Russian ladies are my favorites, naturally I would focus more on them and their coaches. But I agree that we will probably never agree on this, so let‘s move on.

I think Nastya should go to seniors next year. There is no space in junior competitions and even if she probably won‘t get a second GP event, there are challengers and she can get high enough scores to secure her some events the following season. And I know this season will be different as there are a lot more skaters to fill the spots, but last season Sofia only had one assignment originally too and ended up as European Champion. I don‘t think this is likely to happen for Nastya or anyone for that matter as it involves a lot of luck but it would be nice to see her have a good season regardless.

I‘m no fan of Buyanova, her way of thinking about URs and how it‘s unnecessary to correct them is just beyond me. Her students are losing so many points on this and she‘s unwilling to do anything about it. Unbelievable. But she still has the reputation and Nastya is her top student now. So, yes, they could both need a good season. Nastya‘s jump technique is peculiar somehow but she still manages to land 3Lz-3Lo, so if she does that consistently next season... well, there‘s hope. Especially since everything else about her skating is simply sublime.

Someone else I‘m hoping for to have success is Tarakanova. I feel like those two are really underrated but just so talented. I‘m a bit scared for Tarakanova, changing coaches so often, never being in an environment for a long time, always having to adjust... it‘s probably hard and interferes with the training process. I guess she will stay in juniors where it‘s not going to be easy either. So many girls, even with 3A gone. Let‘s hope she can be successful nonetheless. It’s a shame she never went to Junior Worlds. But there are just too many great girls.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
So, I understood you correctly, that the next time I see this phrase "Eteri's methods", then I should be understood as "Russian methods"? (Because from the point of view of the Russian mentality, Eteri does not do anything wrong)

But if so, on what basis do people from other cultures and mentalities teach us how to treat our children? Why do you insult us by saying these word -"abuse"?

I'm not sure about your first question. Is Eteri considered much harsher than other Russian coaches? That's the impression I get here, but I'm not sure what it is from the Russian perspective. She has a reputation of being a "factory" that other Russian coaches do not, I know that much. That seems to lead to a negative perception that does not apply to other Russian coaches.

People across all cultures worry about kids across all cultures (I think). And everyone thinks "their way" is the right way. Which leads to all of this fighting. I am trying to avoid saying one side is right or one side is wrong - just trying to explain the differences between both sides.
 

dunffvanstorn

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
I think Eteri should be discussed in an Eteri thread, and the skaters should be discussed here. BTW, nobody is trying to say Eteri isn’t a great coach. She is in many ways. I just think we should wait some 5 more years to see how Eteri’s camp really is and how skaters develop in the long term. She’s been in the spotlight for only 5 years (being generous). Longevity is still not something we can evaluate on her skaters. Let’s not jump into conclusions of Eteri being the supreme coach until more of her skaters mature. (and let’s not forget her huge accomplishments, cause it’s undeniable she’s doing some great stuff).

I’m neutral about Eteri - like some stuff, disagree with others... I think we can’t generalize everything a professional does as being just good or just bad.
 

Vandevska

U don't have to build the end of the world out it.
Medalist
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
I don't think Eteri has some more proving to do with her skaters, but if that's the case, I think that considering she'll have 5 seniors next year (3A + Alina + LilBet), if 3/5 are successful, it's enough. Sometimes I feel like she's held to incredibly high standards without reason.

She still makes me feel like: :scratch2: :confused: :scratch2: though.
 

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
I'm not sure about your first question. Is Eteri considered much harsher than other Russian coaches? That's the impression I get here, but I'm not sure what it is from the Russian perspective. She has a reputation of being a "factory" that other Russian coaches do not, I know that much. That seems to lead to a negative perception that does not apply to other Russian coaches.

Russian anti-fans of Eteri will tell you that she is a fiend and all the other Russian coaches against her background are lambs. But in fact, I did not see anything that other Russian coaches do not do - weight control, or that she might shout at the student - there is nothing unusual about that.
I therefore ask, what is the "methods of Eteri"? I honestly do not understand this phrase. She does not beat them, parents attend training sessions, of course knows about the conditions (and btw this is feature of Eteri, many coaches do not like the presence of parents of figure skaters in the old fashioned way; they may even hinder this. But not Eteri - on the contrary, she welcomes the presence of parents) Pogorilaya told that she once called her trainer Tsareva without patronymic and Tsareva forced her to run a cross as punishment. In the case of Tutberidze, I don’t even know such cases.

People across all cultures worry about kids across all cultures (I think). And everyone thinks "their way" is the right way. Which leads to all of this fighting.
But you can not tell people of another country and culture how to raise their children! Cuz this is cultural aggression, don't you understand that? After all, this is an attempt, albeit implicit, to impose its cultural code. Do we teach Americans how to raise their children? Although, by the way, sometimes when watching your movies, hair stand on end, but this is your business, we do not climb into it.
 

Vandevska

U don't have to build the end of the world out it.
Medalist
Joined
Dec 18, 2017

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
There are healthy ways to lose/maintain weight and not-healthy ways.

But somehow some people rush to immediate conclusion that those "healthy ways" are reserved for some, while others are always "questionable" and they feel free to openly speculate. Mostly just because of the fact that e. g. Alina openly speaks about her weight control. While when Yuzu speaks about his weight control (that it's his first concern after getting up from bed to get on scale), it is OK. I still can't see what allows those people to speculate or "question" about one and not about the other. Esp. when weight control is totally natural and usual in most of sport branches (maybe excl. chess), so one should question either both or none. Do they differ it just because one speaks openly and goes to the details about it and others, when speak about it, they do it less openly"? I always thought that speaking openly says "I've nothing to hide", but, as you've written, when "it is hidden", it probably concerns sensitive conscience less. For me this is an absurd contradiction.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
But somehow some people rush to immediate conclusion that those "healthy ways" are reserved for some, while others are always "questionable" and they feel free to openly speculate. Mostly just because of the fact that e. g. Alina openly speaks about her weight control. While when Yuzu speaks about his weight control (that it's his first concern after getting up from bed to get on scale), it is OK. I still can't see what allows those people to speculate or "question" about one and not about the other. Esp. when weight control is totally natural and usual in most of sport branches (maybe excl. chess), so one should question either both or none. Do they differ it just because one speaks openly and goes to the details about it and others, when speak about it, they do it less openly"? I always thought that speaking openly says "I've nothing to hide", but, as you've written, when "it is hidden", it probably concerns sensitive conscience less. For me this is an absurd contradiction.

I had personally never heard this Hanyu quote about the scale, though I'm assuming it's true. I don't find it concerning on its own, especially since he's an adult weighing himself at home. Has he talked about very restrictive dieting or limiting his water?

Anyway, I think Eteri has just had a lot said about her - moreso than the other camps have. And because she works with children and not adults, people get more concerned. But sure, people who criticize Eteri should all interrogate their own biases and be willing to look critically at other coaches. With Eteri, many things have been said, which all add up in people's minds. With other coaches, not so much has been said.

Weight control is totally normal in sport. But it can be taken too far. Some weight control is normal. Other times it can be dangerous. Eating disorders are very common in skating for a reason. It is especially concerning when we are talking about children who still have a lot of growing to do. They need to get enough food for their healthy development.

I think this is why Eteri gets much more scrutiny and criticism than other coaches.
 

LenaRadiFan

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
But somehow some people rush to immediate conclusion that those "healthy ways" are reserved for some, while others are always "questionable" and they feel free to openly speculate. Mostly just because of the fact that e. g. Alina openly speaks about her weight control. While when Yuzu speaks about his weight control (that it's his first concern after getting up from bed to get on scale), it is OK. I still can't see what allows those people to speculate or "question" about one and not about the other. Esp. when weight control is totally natural and usual in most of sport branches (maybe excl. chess), so one should question either both or none. Do they differ it just because one speaks openly and goes to the details about it and others, when speak about it, they do it less openly"? I always thought that speaking openly says "I've nothing to hide", but, as you've written, when "it is hidden", it probably concerns sensitive conscience less. For me this is an absurd contradiction.
I think, at least for me, age plays a huuuuge role in how I perceive statements about things like weight and health and such. I think one of the main reasons why so many people, including me, are so concerned especially about Eteris students is that they're so so incredibly young(I think the average is about 15 years old?) And IMO when your skaters are so young, you also have a role of actually helping them and teaching them how to be healthy without restricting yourself too much(this I mean what Zhenya talked about how she sometimes only had one small chocolate bar because she was scared of gaining) and eating a balanced, cut out for elite sport diet without being scared of food. And in my opinion Eteri does not do that.

That's why I also think that people are critiquing Eteri for what happened with Yulia, and in the case of, for example Gabby, which is older than what Yulia was, less on Brian, if you know what I mean.
 
Top