2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating | Page 555 | Golden Skate

2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
I think a lot of the Nathan hate is about his PCS not his quads.
Some people are just not willing to accept that the jumps are what makes it a true sport and not an art.
If a skater doesn't land their jumps no amount of artistry can save them and if a skater lands more difficult jumps they deserve high rewards, that is the way it should be.

I mean, yes. It is a sport and I have no problem with high BV skaters winning. But, as it is, PCS is suppose to be provided for non- jump aspects of figure skating. No where in the rules does it say skaters with higher BV deserve higher PCS. In fact, PCS is suppose to be awarded for the artistic side and the basic skating.. If the ISU wants to make sure skaters with big jumps always win then they should increase the value of those jumps. They shouldn't give a skater higher scores in TR and SS for landing jumps. That just isn't honest because it isn't scoring skating according to the criteria specified.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
What's wrong with wanting to watch artistic ballet ON ICE?

If you only want tech or jumps, watch any number of winter sports.

How many other winter sports have jumps exactly like figure skating? Oh, none.
Other sports do have scores for presentation as well as the athleticism but nobody complains snowboarders for example need to be more artistic do they.

Perhaps stick to watching ice dancing, which comes closer to performing arts than athletic sport? Not that there's anything wrong with Ice Dance, I like it very much.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I mean, yes. It is a spotrt and I have no problem with high BV skaters winning. But, as it is PCS is suppose to be provided for non- jump aspects of figure skating. No where in the rules does it say skaters with higher BV deserve higher PCS. In fact, PCS is suppose to be awarded for the artistic side and the basic skating.. If he ISU wants to make sure skaters with big jumps always win then they should increase the value of those jumps. They shouldn't give a skater higher scores in TT and SS for landing jumps. That just isn't honest because it isn't scoring skating according to the criteria specified.

I didn't mean higher PCS rewards, I meant rewarded with very high technical scores that no amount of artistry can compete with
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
I think a lot of the Nathan hate is about his PCS not his quads.
Some people are just not willing to accept that the jumps are what makes it a true sport and not an art.
If a skater doesn't land their jumps no amount of artistry can save them and if a skater lands more difficult jumps they deserve high rewards, that is the way it should be.

I think sometimes there's a misconception about true art not compatible with highest tech. Lots of "purely tech" skaters (especially in ladies, alas!) get away with medals while clearly being huge ZEROs artistically, and it's supposedly okay because "it's a sport".

And yet, in other art forms, such as music or ballet, one actually has to be both - a true artist and a technical virtuoso, i.e., an artistic virtuoso - in order to rise to the very top and earn accolades.

In male skating, we see that brilliance from some skaters. Yuzu, Shoma got it in spades; and now Nathan is getting there.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
What's wrong with wanting to watch artistic ballet ON ICE?

If you only want tech or jumps, watch any number of winter sports.

As if high tech quality and artistry were excluding each other...

I mean, yes. It is a spotrt and I have no problem with high BV skaters winning. But, as it is PCS is suppose to be provided for non- jump aspects of figure skating. No where in the rules does it say skaters with higher BV deserve higher PCS. In fact, PCS is suppose to be awarded for the artistic side and the basic skating.. If he ISU wants to make sure skaters with big jumps always win then they should increase the value of those jumps. They shouldn't give a skater higher scores in TT and SS for landing jumps. That just isn't honest because it isn't scoring skating according to the criteria specified.

Why so bitter about that? The only issue is that while jumps and other elements are (relatively) objective, a hundred people will have a hundred views about artistic side of figure skating. That's why there are nine judges instead of one "I know all about artistry expert" at competitions.
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
How many other winter sports have jumps exactly like figure skating? Oh, none.
Other sports do have scores for presentation as well as the athleticism but nobody complains snowboarders for example need to be more artistic do they.

Perhaps stick to watching ice dancing, which comes closer to performing arts than athletic sport? Not that there's anything wrong with Ice Dance, I like it very much.

Actually, it's male skating (and on rare occasion, pair skating) that comes closer to performing arts nowadays, not ice dance. True artists there. But thank you for your suggestions on what I should watch.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I think sometimes there's a misconception about true art not compatible with highest tech. Lots of "purely tech" skaters (especially in ladies, alas!) get away with medals while clearly being huge ZEROs artistically, and it's supposedly okay because "it's a sport".

And yet, in other art forms, such as music or ballet, one actually has to be both - a true artist and a technical virtuoso, i.e., an artistic virtuoso - in order to rise to the very top and earn accolades.

In male skating, we see that brilliance from some skaters. Yuzu, Shoma got it in spades; and now Nathan is getting there.

Skating is a sport first and foremost, not an art.
I think very few skaters who are "bad" at artistry but excellent technically get away with more medals than more artistic ones at all.
In fact it has often been quite the opposite.
Liza loses out to other skaters despite her excellent jumping technique, because of weaker PCS.
Carolina Kostner was rescued by her PCS numerous times despite technical errors and inconsistency.
Surya Bonaly in the 1990s was consistently beaten by skaters with less difficult jumps because of her artistry and skating skill deficiencies.
Satoko Miyahara has had plenty of success despite being a "bad" jumper. She has exquisite artistry
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Actually, it's male skating (and on rare occasion, pair skating) that comes closer to performing arts nowadays, not ice dance. True artists there. But thank you for your suggestions on what I should watch.

Watch whatever you want but you give out the impression that you dislike the fact jumps are important.
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Watch whatever you want but you give out the impression that you dislike the fact jumps are important.

I dislike the fact that in ladies figure skating, ugly-(clumsy)-looking jumps in flailing-arms programs can be more important than beautiful artistic programs with precision jumps (but not as many tech points), and that ladies PCS often have no reflection of reality.

It has to be the total package. Not one or the other.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I dislike the fact that in ladies figure skating, ugly-(clumsy)-looking jumps in flailing-arms programs can be more important than beautiful artistic programs with precision jumps (but not as many tech points), and that ladies PCS often have no reflection of reality.

It has to be the total package. Not one or the other.

No. It doesn't have to be the total package. Different athletes (yes, they are athletes) have different strengths and weaknesses. Very few have the ability to be both brilliantly technical and incredibly artistic.

Why are you so against this in ladies but not men, isn't that a bit sexist? The men's free skate last night was a bit of a mess, lots of ugly falls, pops and errors on the big jumps!
 

Casual

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
No. It doesn't have to be the total package. Different athletes (yes, they are athletes) have different strengths and weaknesses. Very few have the ability to be both brilliantly technical and incredibly artistic.

Why are you so against this in ladies but not men, isn't that a bit sexist? The men's free skate last night was a bit of a mess, lots of ugly falls, pops and errors on the big jumps!

The whole point of skating performance is to create a mesmerizing moment on ice, which requires invoking true powerful emotions and awe in the audience. It has to be the total package to enjoy it. Ugly strained jumps or soulless empty programs do not allow to create that moment.

If total package was not important, why use music at all? Why dance? Why create a character?

As for ladies vs. men, it beats me, why (lately) ladies are so inferior to men in this (artistic) regard? It's very, very strange, but quite a few men skaters (not all, obviously) are true artists who create those incredible moments, while top ladies often fall short.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
The whole point of skating performance is to create a mesmerizing moment on ice, which requires invoking true powerful emotions and awe in the audience. It has to be the total package to enjoy it. Ugly strained jumps or soulless empty programs do not allow to create that moment.

If total package was not important, why use music at all? Why dance? Why create a character?

As for ladies vs. men, it beats me, why (lately) ladies are so inferior to men in this (artistic) regard? It's very, very strange, but quite a few men skaters (not all, obviously) are true artists who create those incredible moments, while top ladies often fall short.

You know what, I'll just agree to disagree and let you get on with your complaining about how ugly the ladies programs supposedly are when artistry aside, the men were messy and "ugly" at SA in terms of falling, stumbling and popping their difficult jumps, which detracted from some otherwise solid performances.

Total package doesn't mean everyone should be at exactly the same standard in both categories. The aim is to demonstrate your skills in a polished, pleasing manner with a competent performance. Invoking true powerful emotion and awe as you put it is icing on the cake and not that many skaters can do that. If that's what you want out of skaters then your standards are way higher than what is expected of them.

Nobody is going to be able to change your bias, so have at it.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Hypocrisy goes both ways. I think it's extra hilarious that Nathan is seen as a hero to many US fans, who deserves every point he gets (lol), then going on about how Trusova killed figure skating.
Agree wholeheartedly.

In honor of Anna's amazing moment last night, here's a throwback to her stunning junior debut last year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOzD7vSJkCY
She truly is something special, and I can't believe she's already senior.
you mean Anna only had one year of juniors and one senior event and she's doing this? Watch out world! Only if she could master her short program. Then she would be almost unbeatable. I don't know why so many ladies struggle with their short program where they're net free program especially since you can't do quads in the short program.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
I mean, yes. It is a spotrt and I have no problem with high BV skaters winning. But, as it is PCS is suppose to be provided for non- jump aspects of figure skating. No where in the rules does it say skaters with higher BV deserve higher PCS. In fact, PCS is suppose to be awarded for the artistic side and the basic skating.. If he ISU wants to make sure skaters with big jumps always win then they should increase the value of those jumps. They shouldn't give a skater higher scores in TT and SS for landing jumps. That just isn't honest because it isn't scoring skating according to the criteria specified.

If PCS was supposed to be for artistic qualities and basic skating then Nastya (Gubanova) wouldn't have been short-changed all the times I've been following her the last three-plus years. It is been the most frustrating thing about being a supporter of hers because she excels with artistry musicality and basic skating skills certainly never got rewarded for it the way others have.
 

NAOTMAA

Medalist
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
The whole point of skating performance is to create a mesmerizing moment on ice, which requires invoking true powerful emotions and awe in the audience. It has to be the total package to enjoy it. Ugly strained jumps or soulless empty programs do not allow to create that moment.

If total package was not important, why use music at all? Why dance? Why create a character?

As for ladies vs. men, it beats me, why (lately) ladies are so inferior to men in this (artistic) regard? It's very, very strange, but quite a few men skaters (not all, obviously) are true artists who create those incredible moments, while top ladies often fall short.

Your stating A LOT of personal preference and opinion. It's all subjective and nowhere in the rules do things have to play out as you describe here. Everyone feels different to different things. Besides all art itself is different, there is no one way only!

And Anna's costume moment (right as the music changed!) provoked more "awe and excitement" from the audience then any other moment in the whole SA event! They were still talking about it far after it happened. So they clearly found her performance "mesmerizing.''
 

ramed

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 2, 2016
Country
Russia
Quad mania has replaced beautiful skating with edges, flow, lines......

Let's see if Anna keeps her jumps after she gains some weight....my guess, no.....
Last year Shcherbakova's listed height was 150 cm. Now her ISU profile states she's 154 cm but it was easy to see during the medal ceremony that Anna is actually slightly taller than Liza Tuk (157 cm). Perhaps she's 158-159 cm now. I'm curious about that bit, "Quad mania has replaced beautiful skating with edges, flow, lines" - have you by sheer accident been watching some other Anna who happens to jump quads? :confused:
 

bubblecherry

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 20, 2018
And Anna's costume moment (right as the music changed!) provoked more "awe and excitement" from the audience then any other moment in the whole SA event!

You must not have seen Nathan's performance then ;) In fact, the SkAm crowd was fantastic and reacted so well to many amazing moments, even from less successful skaters. It was really a great crowd. I initially didn't like the costume change because I find it gimmicky (and I just strongly dislike the program in general, I find it incredibly inferior to her short and last year's FS) I actually thought it was a cute moment because of the crowd reaction.

On another note, barring complete suprise at other events, I don't think Liza can make GPF without a gold at her next event. Rika, Bradie, and Zhenya will fight for Bronze and Silver at Skate Canada, and it's hard to imagine anyone getting on the podium next week with less than 210, maybe even 220 points. The judges just aren't allowing Liza to score that high. We will see.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
The Anna I watched skated very beautifully.

Trusova the quad queen is by no means a bad performer and doesn't lack beautiful skating to me, she has a different style to Anna for sure but what she does do works for her, and she continues to improve.
 
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