2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating | Page 67 | Golden Skate

2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

Vilord

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 9, 2015
Country
Sweden
Isn't that Ice Scope thing actually very unreliable? I read somewhere on this board about the methodology and it sounded not very accurate at all. So I'm not sure we should be stating that as some kind of super precise fact.

BTW I'm not posting this to say that her quad is small.

Jump height is directly corrolated to jump height and can be calculated verry accuratley if we have high frame rate videos that give us good time resolution of the jumps. I dont know how the ice scope work and I think that the length of a jump sholud be much more diffecult to calculate than height so it might be that that is inacurate in the ice scope. Or mabye just software that is bad at determining when someone leaves and hits the ice.
 

fabienne1996

Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2018
Country
Germany
I look at history from that group, their skaters, what coaches say during interviews, interviews from former students (which even if it's not 100% accurate, there's always some truth), to make my own guesses on the Eteri's miracle, and i want to clarify that these are guesses on what's happening there, and what might happen going forward, not a personal opinion on what's good and what's bad (that's a whole separate debate):

- One thing we can all agree, is that they train hard, probably harder than any other group in Russia, maybe in the world. That's something you realize just by looking at the details in their programs, like spins, how fast and centered they always are, that alone we all know requires practicing: spinning is mostly an acquired skill, how good you are at spinning mostly depends on how much you train them.

We know from interviews they train each element hundreds of times, even without mentioning the most recent controversial one with Polina Shuboderova, i recall even Daniil Gleichengauz admitting that earlier last season: very early in the season Alina made the same mistake in the 2a in the SP two-three times, journalists asked them why not changing the entrance and Daniil said those were very unusual mistakes, cause out of hundreds of attempts at their rink Alina rarely made those mistakes. They probably track the failure rate of each element for every skater to see what's worth trying and what not. That's why Evgenia landed all kinds of combos in practice but in competition it was always 3F-3T, 3S-3T and 3Lo-3T (when she was missing the flip in the short)

I believe there is even a 1-2 months period (which the last interview mentions) where it's just crunch time to get things done (the rest is practicing for the muscle memory) and that's why Kanysheva for instance already has a 4T, when few months ago she was fine but a bit inconsistent with Panova dealing with only triples, sometimes underrotating them.

- Looking at their skaters throughout the years, to me Eteri/Sergei's coaching style seems very much trial and error, the catch is that they don't fix the mistakes with you but with the next one: they try several things with one skater, some of them works others don't, they keep those that worked and try to fix the mistakes with the next generation. That's one of the reasons why their next generation of skaters is most of the time better than the previous one (the other reason is that they have a wider pool to choose from now, so it is really cherry picking for them while previously Eteri and Sergei had to work with not the best talents)

- this point is very much a consequence of the previous one: they don't fix the elements as the body grows. Alina Zagitova is growing and she kept the same elements the way they were and things are starting to regress a little bit, if you look her 2a is starting to look small, she often gets off axis in the air. Two seasons ago in juniors it was a strong element for her.

- Reading and hearing Eteri's interviews, she doesn't seem to care to keep a skater successful for many years to come, she wants to give the same chance to all her skaters, meaning most of her skaters have 1-2 years to win as much as possible. After that she will probably already have a new young group to push and you're no longer the leader, that's why skaters feel a bit disposable.

There are so many questions that haven't been answered yet, even regarding the future of 3A and some of them even Eteri and her staff can't really answer:

1) How RusFed will react to Eteri's getting all the spots all the time going forward? It's very likely 3A will sweep the podium at Nationals this year and that would mean all 3 spots for senior Worlds are going to Eteri's group, that will certainly create even more envy among the other coaches.

2) Will 3A stay with Eteri for the next 3 years? One easy solution for other coaches to prevent Eteri sweeping podiums left and right is to convince one of their skaters to switch. That went bad most of the time.

3) How much will 3A grow and will they keep this technique by 2022? By the time Olympics arrive, they will be 18-19 years old. Look at how many skaters from that group lasted that long. Not many.

4) How sustainable is that training approach with the quads and triple axel? Have you ever wondered why Eteri isn't as successful with the boys as she is with the girls? The official answer from Eteri is that "boys are too emotional", while i've always speculated for years that her training consists in a huge number of attempts for each element, they want to make sure everything is extremely consistent, now applies that to quads: we keep hearing from top male skaters because of the nature of the quad (higher, riskier) they can't be treated as triples, there are days of no jumping to avoid injuries.

I think that's a problem Eteri/Sergei have already identified and their solution is by reducing the height and increase the prerotation: look at Trusova, Shcherbakova, Samsonov quads, yes these elements are big considering the heights of these skaters but do you think Eteri/Sergei will increase the height of the quads as they grow? that's something i'm curious to see but i suspect the answer is no (but i guess that also depends on how the judges will score these smaller quads), Adian Pitkeev's 4T was bigger (and because of that much more inconsistent)
Thank you for saying this.
 

fabienne1996

Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2018
Country
Germany
Trusova's quad toe is as high as the best men. This is from actual calculated data. Anna's quad lutz isn't too tiny either, at 56 cm, higher than most triples by ladies, even the ones that jump high.
She is talking about when they grow and their bodies will change. We do not know what will happen. But there is always a chance that some skaters could loose their jumps ect.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Alina still has plenty of time to rise her BV. She already started to learn quad flip. Of course I cvan't predict how succesful she will be with that, but as we know her she is very competitive and if she would want to win, not just participate, I'm sure she will do her best to master this quad. And even without quad she is still nearly on the same level as others with 1-2 3As or one quad, so she definitely is one who has to be counted with.

If AZ could manage 4F that would be incredible to her career. I just hope she has time to practice it this summer. I have no doubt she will need that and a 3A in order to win the Olympics again especially with her younger teammates and Alysa Liu looming with all their quads and triple axels.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Trusova's quad toe is as high as the best men. This is from actual calculated data. Anna's quad lutz isn't too tiny either, at 56 cm, higher than most triples by ladies, even the ones that jump high.

Trusova's quad toe is probably the biggest i've seen from all her girls (bigger than her 4ltz for sure), i doubt it is as high as the best men though.

Shcherbakova's 4ltz is higher than triples but still one of the smallest 4ltz, better thann Gogolev's 4ltz which also look very small, she uses more speed and distance is good, i wouldn't be surprised if it is bigger than Shoma's 4F.

Anyway my point was, quad attempts from previous Eteri's skaters used to be bigger, it's also true that they came from older and taller skaters and that's why i dunno if this next generation quads is going to get bigger as they grow or will stay the same.

I don't think it got smaller, but the opposite. Distance wise it looks the same and the height looks bigger. For the axis yes, some times looks off.

Let me rephrase, shortest not smallest, i made some grammar mistake on that post (it was 2 am in Italy haha)

Using the japanese data from Worlds 2019 SP, here's the top 9 2a ranked from the top 9 ladies (Rika popped the axel so they showed Lutz stats)

Alina Zagitova
Distance: 2.04 m (9/9)
Height: 0.38 m (5/9)
Landing: 12.5 km/h (9/9)

Kaori Sakamoto
Distance: 3.20 m (1/9)
Height: 0.36 m (6/9)
Landing: 20.7 km/h (1/9)

Elizabet Tursynbaeva
Distance: 2.70 m (3/9)
Height: 0.40 m (3/9)
Landing: 16.4 km/h (3/9)

Evgenia Medvedeva
Distance: 2.53 m (5/9)
Height: 0.35 m (7/9)
Landing: 12.9 km/h (8/9)

Eun Soo Lim
Distance: 2.40 m (6/9)
Height: 0.41 m (2/9)
Landing: 15.1 km/h (5/9)

Mariah Bell
Distance: 2.71 m (2/9)
Height: 0.45 m (1/9)
Landing: 13.5 m (7/9)

Satoko Miyahara
Distance: 2.18 m (8/9)
Height: 0.34 m (9/9)
Landing: 13.6 km/h (6/9)

Sofia Samodurova
Distance: 2.29 m (7/9)
Height: 0.35 m (8/9)
Landing: 16.5 km/h (2/9)

Bradie Tennell
Distance: 2.59 m (4/9)
Height: 0.40 m (4/9)
Landing: 15.7 km/h (4/9)

Note that Alina's difficult entry probably affects the speed on the landing, but still it is indeed the shortest 2a among the top ladies and it got shorter this season.
 

Mawwerg

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Trusova's quad toe is probably the biggest i've seen from all her girls (bigger than her 4ltz for sure), i doubt it is as high as the best men.

I think here is some kind of words playing. The men are considered are the best in term of results not of their jumps heigh. :laugh:

I also think Alina's entry into 2A has quite strong effect on jumps. Her two 2A in free program are looking different at least at real time on TV.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Let me rephrase, shortest not smallest, i made some grammar mistake on that post (it was 2 am in Italy haha)

That's fine yes, it was the shortest. I don't have data how short it was last season so I don't know how much shorter it become this season. But if you have, I believe you.

But about the smaller my comments stands and actually I think all of her jumps got a bit bigger this season.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
I also think Alina's entry into 2A has quite strong effect on jumps. Her two 2A in free program are looking different at least at real time on TV.

It looks like there is some correlation. The data from her FS 2A:

Distance: 2.22 m
Height: 0.41 cm
Landing: 12.4 km/h

and her FS 2A was not her best it was "wild".
 

lopsilceci

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 20, 2019
Country
Mexico
I think here is some kind of words playing. The men are considered are the best in term of results not of their jumps heigh. :laugh:

I also think Alina's entry into 2A has quite strong effect on jumps. Her two 2A in free program are looking different at least at real time on TV.

Alina did have some of the most, if not THE most difficult jump entries and exits. For her 2A, for example, she was doing the Charlotte entry.

Most of the time she's doing difficult elements, steps and transitions on a single leg, which is very impressive considering the strength, stamina and balance required.
 

Happy Skates

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Trusova's quad toe is probably the biggest i've seen from all her girls (bigger than her 4ltz for sure), i doubt it is as high as the best men though.
From all the data I've seen, Trusova's is in fact around as big as the top men. Granted, data can be inaccurate, have discrepancies, but its certainly in that ballpark.
 

hippomoomin

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
I think Alina's new programs could use less transitions because they are physically demanding and make jumps more prone to fall, and I don't think transitions are appreciated as much by the judges as the previous season. People will also stop complaining that her moves are "unfinished" or her programs are too "busy."
 

melgirl25

Medalist
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Just read a story on IG that one of Alina’s programs will be to Billie Eilish “Bad Guy” and that a Japanese skater is going to Eteri. These are rumors. Daniil did say there will be a new Alina and they seem to be experimenting a little more (Alena’s short program choice) so could be true...

Source: addictedtofigureskating
 

Happy Skates

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Just read a story on IG that one of Alina’s programs will be to Billie Eilish “Bad Guy” and that a Japanese skater is going to Eteri. These are rumors. Daniil did say there will be a new Alina and they seem to be experimenting a little more (Alena’s short program choice) so could be true...

Source: addictedtofigureskating

The Billie Eilish thing is a rumor because she followed her on insta and posted a clip of her listening to "Bad Guy". I'm guessing that she just likes the music, I mean it could be, but she's been away from Russia for so long I don't think they would be talking about music until she gets back. Although she just got back today so maybe they'll announce it soon.
 

TripleAxelQueens3

sasha trusova is superior
Final Flight
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
I love Billie Eilish, but Bad Guy is definitely not a competition song. There isn’t a lot of room for “interpretation” or matching elements to the music. It’s perfect for a gala (though I’m sure people will be screaming “inappropriate” even though Billie and Alina are the same age).
 

Xzander

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Have you ever wondered why Eteri isn't as successful with the boys as she is with the girls? The official answer from Eteri is that "boys are too emotional", while i've always speculated for years that her training consists in a huge number of attempts for each element, they want to make sure everything is extremely consistent, now apply that to quads: we keep hearing from top male skaters because of the nature of the quad (higher, riskier) they can't be treated as triples, there are days of no jumping to avoid injuries.

I think this is also a lot about the material. There are way less talented boys than girls. Now they have Daniil Samsonov who is pretty much the whole package.
 

SnowWhite

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Country
Canada
I love Billie Eilish, but Bad Guy is definitely not a competition song. There isn’t a lot of room for “interpretation” or matching elements to the music. It’s perfect for a gala (though I’m sure people will be screaming “inappropriate” even though Billie and Alina are the same age).

I'd rather Ocean Eyes if someone really wanted to skate to Billie Eilish for a competition program. Maybe You Should See Me In A Crown, but I do think of that more for an ex too.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I love Billie Eilish, but Bad Guy is definitely not a competition song. There isn’t a lot of room for “interpretation” or matching elements to the music. It’s perfect for a gala (though I’m sure people will be screaming “inappropriate” even though Billie and Alina are the same age).

I’d choose ‘Watch’ if I were picking a William Eyelash song for a skater. The choreography in that video is so awesome and the lyrics are amazing!!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=9dobJDxPEzM

Someone suggested ‘You Should See Me in a Crown’ for Sasha in another thread and I’d literally die of happiness!!
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Where is Eteris training camp this year? It will be such an important training camp because she went from to seniors last season to five seniors now. I am 100% sure no coach ever had five seniors in one discipline the calibre of these girls that EG has.
 
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