Ice Dance: Canasta Tango - timing gripe. 28 steps?

Sinus Pi · Apr 12, 2019

I've been trying to get into some dance routines, starting with some simple ones like Swing or Canasta Tango, and I stumbled across a conundrum. The Canasta Tango, according to the pattern, has 28 steps. Twenty eight. 7x4. I'm no expert on tango in general, but my general knowledge of music patterns and those few clips of tangoes I found online say they are more or less simple 32-beaters, sometimes with a catchy 8-beat question-and-answer motif - all in all, the most typical 8x4 beat or a multiple thereof. And yet there's the 7, and people go and dance a 2x14-step pattern, seemingly ignoring the fact that they're shifting in regard to the music. Oh, there's also a 24-beat variant with some steps skipped, but that's only a bit better... So either the world has gone crazy and people dance with little concern for alignment with music, or I'm missing something.

So which is it?

Edit: So Willow Waltz is 9x6 steps, which means that if the music has the usual 8-step verse, you steal one step from the next verse. 14-Step has 5x4 steps. But the Dutch Waltz, Swing Dance, Cha Cha, Fiesta Tango all follow a nice, proper 8x4/6. This is crazy.

dorispulaski · Apr 13, 2019

It might help to watch people skating these basic dances, with explanations.

Those are some of the basic compulsory dances kids learn when they start ice dance in the US. Some different dances are used in Europe. Here is a nice youtube channel:

From their "About"

We are Senior ice dancers Kseniya Ponomaryova and Oleg Altukhov. We skate for the US, and make skating videos to share with you what we know. Let's make this journey together!

Canasta Tango
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIKwr7qtmWg

Willow Waltz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4TyP84ZXgo

Dutch Waltz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na8a7kh_rxU

Swing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoM4m6ka8hI

Cha cha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usaKXF49x8s

Fiesta Tango
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDyogQGNMaI

Fourteenstep
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTd14QrVYhY

Hickory hoedown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqYyptqYn0I

treblemakerem · Apr 14, 2019

This is the reason why I hate canasta tango. I majored in music in college and was a high level competitive Irish dancer (in which rhythm is very important) and that dance just makes me crazy. You have to start the repeat half way through an eight-bar. :palmf:

dorispulaski · Apr 14, 2019

Isn't canasta a card game with two jokers in the deck?

I think it is appropriately named.

This blog about it claims it used to be nicknamed the Nasty Tango.

https://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2011/12/canasta-tango.html

http://skatedancediagrams.weebly.com/canasta-tango.html

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 14, 2019

Fun story: the Canasta Tango is the only dance test I ever failed (although I only learned up to some of the Gold dances). For someone starting in dance it actually isn't as easy as it looks... or at least that's what I'll keep telling myself.

anonymoose_au · Apr 14, 2019

dorispulaski said:
Isn't canasta a card game with two jokers in the deck?

Two decks of cards with four Jokers all together! :biggrin:

I know this well because it's my favourite card game! I play it with my grandmother - she still kicks my butt good.

But man all these steps...I'd never be able to do ice dance because I am utterly lacking in timing skills...I'm the person clapping a beat behind in a crowd.

But thanks for the links, Doris, it's cool to find out more about the dances.

Sinus Pi · Apr 14, 2019

dorispulasky, I've already read through those as much as I could, enough to grasp the timings - you'll notice I listed them out. And I've watched more than a sane share of Ksenia and Oleg's videos

. I don't have a problem understanding how the patterns work or how they're timed - I have a problem understanding WHY it works like that. Why do the professional dancers, in their professionally-executed dance routines, break their songs' eight-bar sequence as if it just wasn't there. They skate their 7 bars while there are 8 bars in the music, so they start their repetition on the 8th bar and proceed through 6 bars of the next verse of the music, and if they go on, they repeat again on the last 2 bars of the music and cover the first 5 bars of the third verse - instead of just having it designed to be 8 per 8, as any sane person would do.

The "Nasty" Tango isn't the only one that either crashes right through an eight-bar (treblemakerem, I feel your pain!), there are a couple others that just "let go of the handlebars" and are timed anything but a multiple of 8 (or 12, for a waltz).

OK, so I'm not the only one that thinks these timings are just bonkers. Now, back to the specific question: WHY!? Why would anyone with an ounce of musical expertise design dance steps that violate the music's rhythm? Surely there must be SOME explanation, other than "meh, no-one cared then, no-one cares now". Were there specific scores for these dances, with precisely shortened or extended bars, or what?

gkelly · Apr 14, 2019

The number of steps in the dance isn't relevant because different steps are held for different numbers of beats.

You have a valid point about the number of measures.

Mathman · Apr 14, 2019

I don't know anything about dance, but I do think that there is a tradition in music sometimes to bring in the next phrase before the old one is completely exhausted. I always experience that "push-forward" feeling when listening to Beethoven's Ode to Jpy for instance. There is a swelling note at the end of each section that saves the rhythm, but still seems a little unsettling/stirring to me. like the next line is starting too soon. (This is an illusion for this particular piece, but it just strikes my ear that way.)

In singles figure skating, I also like programs that try to do something with odd-ball time signatures like 5/4 or 9/8.

As for the 14-step, etc., maybe someone just thought it was cool to repeat a pattern starting on a different beat. It does get away from ONE-two-three-four, ONE-two-three-four over and over with no variation in step.

WednesdayMarch · Apr 14, 2019

Sinus Pi said:
The "Nasty" Tango isn't the only one that either crashes right through an eight-bar (treblemakerem, I feel your pain!), there are a couple others that just "let go of the handlebars" and are timed anything but a multiple of 8 (or 12, for a waltz).

OK, so I'm not the only one that thinks these timings are just bonkers. Now, back to the specific question: WHY!? Why would anyone with an ounce of musical expertise design dance steps that violate the music's rhythm? Surely there must be SOME explanation, other than "meh, no-one cared then, no-one cares now". Were there specific scores for these dances, with precisely shortened or extended bars, or what?

I've always called it the Nasty Tango, ever since it came into view over the horizon in the late 90s (I'm a Brit).

My take on the subject is to agree that, yes, no, whatever, sorry, nobody cares. It's one of those dances I never could - and still struggle to - remember. Very "samey", all forward, run, swing, run, swing, something weird but forward, run, swing, ad infinitum. When I attempt to teach it to adult learners, none of them can remember the steps or timing, let alone grasp the concept of there being something ain't all's well with the actual measures. None. Of. Them. And that's during the same session in which they're taught it, never mind a week later...

Clarice · Apr 14, 2019

I'm a professional musician, and immediately noticed that the counts for some of the dances didn't correspond to the phrasing of the music. It doesn't really bother me. I find it interesting how the dance pattern shifts over the musical pattern, kind of like an isorhythm. I do feel a strong need to start at the top of a phrase, not just on a strong beat, but after that I'm okay with the steps shifting across the phrase.

bunnybarista · Apr 14, 2019

treblemakerem said:
This is the reason why I hate canasta tango. I majored in music in college and was a high level competitive Irish dancer (in which rhythm is very important) and that dance just makes me crazy. You have to start the repeat half way through an eight-bar.

What really gets my goat is the Rhythm Blues! Suddenly you're starting an inside swing roll on beat 3 of a 4-beat measure, and the same with the cross-behinds. It all evens out at the end of one complete pattern, but having two sections of 6 beats instead of 4 bothered me for a while. (I might not be using the right terminology, but anyone who's danced the Rhythm Blues surely knows what I'm referring to.)

I guess I tend to think of most of the dances as having 4-beat bars, even when it might be an 8-beat bar. Thus, the Canasta doesn't bother me at all! I've noticed that dancers in general with non-ice forms of dance like ballet/modern/etc., tend to have an internal count of 4 or 8 (or even 12, if we're talking Flamenco dance) and will largely disregard the actual music. I've also seen this with my own ice dancing - my coach will be counting 1, 2, 3, 4 and repeat, not 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

Clarice · Apr 14, 2019

bunnybarista said:
What really gets my goat is the Rhythm Blues! Suddenly you're starting an inside swing roll on beat 3 of a 4-beat measure, and the same with the cross-behinds. It all evens out at the end of one complete pattern, but having two sections of 6 beats instead of 4 bothered me for a while. (I might not be using the right terminology, but anyone who's danced the Rhythm Blues surely knows what I'm referring to.)

I am confused by this. Those inside swing rolls are each 4 beats long. It's just that you count 3-4-1-2 instead of 1-2-3-4. I'm not understanding how you're thinking of them as 6 beat sections.

Edited to add: Never mind, as I keep thinking about it, I think I see what you're doing. The thing is, I don't really count the numbers at all when I'm skating or teaching this - I chant the steps in rhythm. Seems to work for my students, anyway.

Sinus Pi · Apr 14, 2019

bunnybarista, I may have not been using the right terminology. Someone above corrected my beats to actually mean bars. A whole "verse" of a tango piece usually has 8 bars, each with 1-2-3-4 inside. The Ca-Nasty Tango has steps matching 7 bars. Seven 1-2-3-4s. Thus while it fits onto beats in general, it gets out of sync with the background track after one verse. For someone like me, who thinks of steps and musical notes like one audio-visual performance, moving out of sync is like h
aving random lin
ebreaks that don'
t even match syllab
les.
:furious:

bunnybarista · Apr 14, 2019

Clarice said:
It's just that you count 3-4-1-2 instead of 1-2-3-4.

Yeah, this is what drives me nuts about the Rhythm Blues - sorry I described it in a confusing way! I am used to counting my swing rolls as 1-2-3-4 and having to do 3-4-1-2 on that inside swing roll is so confusing. And thus the cross-behinds become 3-4-1-2-3-4 (they take up 6 beats total). You're right, it would probably work better without counting numbers - thankfully I've mostly moved away from counting, and just feel it in my bones :laugh:

but sometimes I still trip myself up by counting!

gkelly · Apr 14, 2019

bunnybarista said:
What really gets my goat is the Rhythm Blues! Suddenly you're starting an inside swing roll on beat 3 of a 4-beat measure,

That's clearly an intentional choreographic choice, as with the different timing on progressives on steps 1-3 vs. on steps 5-7.

And then there's the Viennese Waltz, which I'll probably never be able to really skate but have tried walking through with a partner. There are a couple of places where the downbeat falls in the middle of a three-beat edge. That's a feature, not a bug, and judges will pay attention to the timing in those sections.

Ic3Rabbit · Apr 14, 2019

gkelly said:
The number of steps in the dance isn't relevant because different steps are held for different numbers of beats.

You have a valid point about the number of measures.

:agree: This right here. You beat me to it!

bunnybarista · Apr 14, 2019

gkelly said:
And then there's the Viennese Waltz, which I'll probably never be able to really skate but have tried walking through with a partner. There are a couple of places where the downbeat falls in the middle of a three-beat edge. That's a feature, not a bug, and judges will pay attention to the timing in those sections.

Oh no, I'm never going to be able to un-see that in the Viennese Waltz! Thankfully it will be many years before I'm at that level, but wow! It's almost evil to do that on a waltz :laugh:

The "issues" of the Canasta and the Rhythm Blues pale in comparison... eek!

WednesdayMarch · Apr 15, 2019

Sinus Pi said:
I don't have a problem understanding how the patterns work or how they're timed - I have a problem understanding WHY it works like that. Why do the professional dancers, in their professionally-executed dance routines, break their songs' eight-bar sequence as if it just wasn't there. They skate their 7 bars while there are 8 bars in the music, so they start their repetition on the 8th bar and proceed through 6 bars of the next verse of the music, and if they go on, they repeat again on the last 2 bars of the music and cover the first 5 bars of the third verse - instead of just having it designed to be 8 per 8, as any sane person would do.

Reading this again (I really should get out more) it just occurred to me that ice dancers are used to starting a pattern dance pretty much anywhere in the piece of music, (hopefully) on the correct beat, and (occasionally) at the start of a bar or measure. Why? Because ice dance was designed as a social activity, and in ice dance clubs or dance intervals in regular sessions, there will always be more than one couple or solo dancer vying for space on the ice, so it's a staggered start. One or two lucky dancers (or couples) will get to start at the right part of the music but the rest will have to just go with the correct beat. If they all follow the correct timing and pattern, they shouldn't collide. Well, that's the theory...

dorispulaski · Apr 15, 2019

That is probably exactly what went on. The blog I was reading on it claimed it was invented directly after the Dutch Waltz for dance sessions.

In poking around about this, I found out that the USFSA app for Ice Dance 1-6 is now on Google Play for Android devices
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rink_tank.dance_1_6

as well as the original Apple-only app available from iTunes
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dance/id477560767

The first six dances in the USFSA test series, which are the subject of this app are:

Preliminary
Dutch Waltz, Canasta Tango and Rhythm Blues

Pre-Bronze
Cha Cha, Fiesta Tango and Swing Dance

For completeness, the other test series are:

Bronze
Willow Waltz, Hickory Hoedown and Ten-Fox

Pre-Silver
Fourteenstep, European Waltz and Foxtrot

Silver
American Waltz, Tango and Rocker Foxtrot

Pre-Gold
Kilian, Paso Doble, Starlight Waltz and Blues

Gold
Viennese Waltz, Westminster Waltz, Quickstep and Argentine Tango

International
Austrian Waltz, Cha Cha Congelado, Finnstep, Golden Waltz, Midnight Blues, Ravensburger Waltz, Rhumba, Silver Samba, Tango Romantica and Yankee Polka

Ice Dance: Canasta Tango - timing gripe. 28 steps?

Sinus Pi

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

treblemakerem

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

CanadianSkaterGuy

anonymoose_au

Insert weird opinion here

Sinus Pi

gkelly

Mathman

WednesdayMarch

Nicer When Fed

Clarice

bunnybarista

If I risk it all, could you break my fall?~

Clarice

Sinus Pi

bunnybarista

If I risk it all, could you break my fall?~

gkelly

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

bunnybarista

If I risk it all, could you break my fall?~

WednesdayMarch

Nicer When Fed

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

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