2019 World Team Trophy: Thoughts and Highlights | Page 4 | Golden Skate

2019 World Team Trophy: Thoughts and Highlights

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But there are very few people who'll take the time to google up math courses and say "Bradie skated like she lasted the full two semesters on Math 55 and scraped by with a C-, but they scored her like Einstein". Let's not analyze snark from someone. They didn't make it personal, and were merely speaking about her skating and judging, and criticism is much needed in this sport in its current state. Counter-snark in defense would be fun to read though :p

The good thing about Blades of Passion's posts is that he always presents sound reasoning based on rational principles and supported by detailed examples.

I do disagree, though, that "snark and counter-snark are fun to read." To me, it's not so much fun as all that. ;)

Bradie skated great, best of her career. Yes, she is a little "angular" and not the smoothest dancer in the field. But she rose to the occasion and nailed down the team victory, so I, for one, have nothing bad to say about her performance.

About the scoring, the most interesting thing to me was how the individual PCS played out between Tennell and Tuktamysheeva (yaaasss, Queeen! -- that's for TontoK :) ). Elizaveta gave a delightful performance and was well ahead of Brady in Performance and Musical Interpretation.

But in Composition Brady got 9.00 to Liza's 8.89. I don't disagree. Tukt spent a lot of time posing, prancing and flirting ( :rock: ), whereas to me, Brady's choreography did make use of the music and did display overall structure and some individual moments. (They both lost, slightly, to Kaori in total PCS.)

Are the scores what they "should" be? I think we tend to overuse the word "should" in these discussions. :yes:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
O]But you are not judging two halves separately, you are lumping all the points together. Having a single skater come last is a disaster, having a pair come last is equivalent to a single skater being the middle of the pack.

True, true.

I guess it depends on whether we want to think of Miura and Ichihashi as finishing last or finishing sixth.

The way the scoring goes now, what a country needs to win is two good men, two good ladies, one good pair and one good dance team (or at least not too terrible). That doesn't seem so bad to me.
 

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Liza was wonderful! Vincent had a great competition. Nathan did a gorgeous quad sal & went for two triple axels. James & Cipres showed how wonderful they are (when the pressure is off). I greatly missed the Chinese pair teams. (It should be illegal to have international pair events without at least one Chinese pair team;)). The dance was not as much fun as it has been most of the season because so many of the contenders are from the same countries so a great deal of the depth & unpredictability was missing here; however, I was happy to see Guignard & Fabbri have such a great FD skate after the mistake on the one lift at Worlds. Nam had a great short. The men were a lot of fun to watch in general. Sofia did her job as she has done all season. Meite had a good final skate. A different team in either pairs or dance should really use Tristan & Isolde because D-M&G are not using the music to the maximum of its potential. Kevin's short is a blast. Whee for Adam in landing a quad lutz in the SP. Two flips for Shoma. It was fun to see the guys go for some of that wild and crazy hard stuff. Also just fun to see many people skating more relaxed without the rest of their season on the line.

Everyone's points about the formatting and about the athletes who didn't show are good ones, but I will say this event gave me a little hope anyway that the odds have improved for the U.S. team in the future. (Also for France as it looks like Vanessa James has rethought her plans for the immediate future. And I'm not discounting China). The U.S. ladies have not been competitive, but there are signs that the tide is turning. If Alysa or one of the other U.S. ladies could mount a real challenge to the top of the ladies' field, only Russia seems the obvious power to have the cards to take advantage of the pairs' deficit in team format.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
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France
But are you still cool with Rika getting a PB and a record SP? ;)

Dunno about them, but Mao's 2014 SP at Worlds should outscore Rika's program for me. Incidentally, it's also Mao's "Claire de Lune" SP that puts Rika's to absolute shame. The latter should not be higher low 7's for interpretation of this music. She doesn't grasp the purity and seclusion being expressed, the simultaneous sadness and loveliness of the piece.

The biggest climax of the music is entirely thrown away by Rika's program and the footwork is a butchery of what's happening musically. Similarly, the overall positions throughout the program fail to express the music well enough, they are just compulsory. This stands in stark contrast to breathtaking positions and expression Mao achieved, the demure and flowing and extended quality, which brought to life the simultaneous innocence and transcendence of the music. Rika's movements are generically "pretty", with many boxy lines and overly fussy or rambunctious movements that have nothing to do with the music.

This is a perfect example of how incorrectly the PCS are being judged. Let's watch the performances back-to-back and see how stark the difference is:

Mao Asada / Rika Kihira

There should be a huge gap in the PCS between these two programs. Look at the details of the transitions even, the smoothness Asada has going into the jumps, the little hops and turns coming out of the 3Flip+3Loop in Asada's program that perfectly reflect the music, how the movements going into the Lutz reflect the exact cadence of what's happening at that time and don't break from the overall choreographic concept. The effortless entrance into the flying spin from the spiral, the beautiful spread eagle before the 2Axel that is placed there exactly because it goes with the long held note happening in the music. The footwork sequence starting seamlessly after that jump.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Where was the improvement...

What I saw was the same kind of stiffness, underwhelming musicality, lack of deep edges for the most part, lack of stretch, not enough expression, and no particularly interesting movements. It was a clean and energetic performance, perhaps even her best, but not something I'd want to watch again. Her PCS were a huge a joke IMO. Well, all of the PCS tend to be a joke, but this program scoring 9's is like calling someone a genius just because they passed Algebra 1.

Bradie’s transitions and composition are well within the parameters of what the IJS rewards. There are no categories for stretch or degree of stiffness and performance and interpretation are inherently subjective. Does Bradie skate like Janet Lynn? No. But the rules are different now and her program and skating are well-constructed for high scores in the current system.
 

tral

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Are the scores what they "should" be? I think we tend to overuse the word "should" in these discussions. :yes:
I think "should" is exactly right though. Need standards, or the madness will never end.

The biggest climax of the music is entirely thrown away by Rika's program and the footwork is a butchery of what's happening musically.
What's your opinion about Wilson's (current form of) choreography, BTW?

I agree Asada's SP should be higher than Kihira's. Probably also Kim's 2007 Worlds SP. And a couple of Kwan's, although she had much lower tech content so perhaps it won't work, but definitely a lot of hers on PCS.
 

tral

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Please cite the bullet points covering stretch and stiffness.

It won't exactly be shocking if there are no bullet points for "choreographic delivery" in the ISU guidelines :p

But better stretch can lead to more committed looking moves and better choreographic effect, which can lead to better PE and CO scores. It can create a better effect with the music that can lead to better IN scores. Twisting your body into creating different balance points over your skates also takes Skating Skill.

I don't necessarily think stretch is absolutely necessary every time. It depends on the music and the choreography, and broken lines, hunched posture can absolutely be used to create artistic effect; or eschewing pretty lines for more dynamic, raw movement. Not everything needs to be "balletic" and the judges should be able to differentiate there. But Tennell's music and choreography would indeed have been better with more stretch.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Joined
Jan 28, 2013
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About the scoring, the most interesting thing to me was how the individual PCS played out between Tennell and Tuktamysheeva (yaaasss, Queeen! -- that's for TontoK :) ). Elizaveta gave a delightful performance and was well ahead of Brady in Performance and Musical Interpretation.

The whapping sound you hear is the whirling of black helicopters coming to whisk you away to a secret underground bunker, where I am waiting.

I am going to make you listen to bad POTO and Les Mis music cuts to pay for this sin.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
It won't exactly be shocking if there are no bullet points for "choreographic delivery" in the ISU guidelines :p

But better stretch can lead to more committed looking moves and better choreographic effect, which can lead to better PE and CO scores. It can create a better effect with the music that can lead to better IN scores. Twisting your body into creating different balance points over your skates also takes Skating Skill.

I don't necessarily think stretch is absolutely necessary every time. It depends on the music and the choreography, and broken lines, hunched posture can absolutely be used to create artistic effect; or eschewing pretty lines for more dynamic, raw movement. Not everything needs to be "balletic" and the judges should be able to differentiate there. But Tennell's music and choreography would indeed have been better with more stretch.

I don't disagree. What I do disagree with is that stretch and balletic moves--or lack thereof--are supposed to be automatically be reflected in PCS. They are part of the subjective elements of P/E and I. Some judges may want to see them; some don't care. We see skaters other than Bradie (who are also more successful than Bradie) getting high PCS without a lot of attention to body line or holding out moves. The criticism shouldn't be directed to how these things are scored; it should be towards what PCS rewards and what it doesn't.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Joined
Sep 14, 2008
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France
I don't just mean stretch in terms of doing a "balletic move", but in terms of fully utilizing a body limb to complete a move, including even just a crossover. Extending the foot or leg or arm all the way through the movement. In terms of flexibility itself though, it's a skill that should also be reflected within the components. First and foremost in choreography, because that component is largely about the quality of the movements themselves. Maybe a program doesn't call for any great amount of a flexibility, but almost always there are at least a couple movements in a program that do become better with more flexibility.

Compare the 2Axel exit that Bradie does at the start of her program to the one that Kwan does her in 1996 program, for example. Bradie tries to hold the landing with her leg fully stretched out behind her, but the leg is not raised above hip level. It's directly inferior to the amount of extension Kwan shows with her free leg while holding the landing. There's no reason within Bradie's choreography that the leg shouldn't be held higher; her attempt at it is simply a lower level of skill. Tara Lipinski does this same thing with her 2Axel in 1998, and you can see that she too had better extension than Bradie, and the movement of her leg on the landing went with the music (ditto Sarah Hughes in 2002, en route to Olympic victory). These things deserve points within the PCS. They are qualities that are not being scored correctly by the judges and, as such, skaters are working on them less and less.
 

tral

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
^If you meant in terms of completing/holding out/stretching out movement/a move, then yeah, I agree even without venturing into Tennell's choreo and music. It becomes jarring.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think "should" is exactly right though. Need standards, or the madness will never end.

Heres's what I think about the never-ending madness.

We invent games and the rules that govern them to amuse ourselves. There are a few overarching principles, like everybody has to follow the same rules. But I would not want to say that in baseball a batter "should" get five strikes instead of three, or that in figure skating we "should" give a ten per cent bonus to three jumps done after the half-way mark. To my way of thinking these questions do not do not exactly rise to the level of Categorical Imperatives.
 

tral

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Heres's what I think about the never-ending madness.

We invent games and the rules that govern them to amuse ourselves. There are a few overarching principles, like everybody has to follow the same rules. But I would not want to say that in baseball a batter "should" get five strikes instead of three, or that in figure skating we "should" give a ten per cent bonus to three jumps done after the half-way mark. To my way of thinking these questions do not do not exactly rise to the level of Categorical Imperatives.

First of all, I agree that the example you gave probably can't be placed as a Categorical Imperative.

It is also an example I don't care about, particularly, though. It makes no sense to me at all the way ISU does things with "backloading bonuses". If someone knocks out 4 quads in the first half back to back in the first minute of the program, kills some time, and then does a triple axel right at the 2:00 mark... It is considered just as worthy of the SAME bonus as someone who does a 3A at the 3:50 mark, and actually also did 2 triples + 2 quads at evenly spaced intervals in the first half, and then did 2 quads between 3:20 to 3:50, while doing demanding skating in between all of it. Let's even assume they did the same quads, in the same order. Makes no sense to me, but apparently, they all take the same amount of energy. :shrug:

What I do think should be considered a Categorical Imperative, is to agree upon a proper definition of how rotation works. Angles aren't subjective, and physics isn't subjective, and I'd like the scoring and rules to reflect and respect that truth. Reward the skaters properly for what they are doing here, otherwise it's deceit.

What I do think should be considered a Categorical Imperative, is to acknowledge that things like performance, choreography, interpretation, aren't entirely subjective. The Very Hungry Caterpillar is not a better literary work than Pride and Prejudice no matter what someone says. A good bit of understanding of matters like these can and should be brought to the judging instead of painting it all as subjective, assuming the judges are educated, and are actually looking at what's happening out on the ice instead of going off of politics. If they are incapable of doing so, fire them.

The games ARE made for amusement. Amusement cannot be expected for the participants or the viewers if absolutely nothing makes sense.


I will say again, though, a big part of the problems, I think is because of how everything is being broken down to the very last decimal place now, and people are missing the big picture. Just looking at a performance, and going back to my example, it really should be an obvious judgment call as to who performed a more technically difficult program in terms of jump placement -- as long as you're not simply making bogus rules about it. It shouldn't be hard to make a call based off what's going on the ice who showed better skating skills and interpretation -- as long as you're not going off poorly written guideline and trying to decide which component should be reflecting what and who deserves 0.25 more. Fix these things. Select judges based off standards instead of who can be manipulated into running the feds' errands. This should be a bare minimum for "Amusement".
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
What I do think should be considered a Categorical Imperative, is to acknowledge that things like performance, choreography, interpretation, aren't entirely subjective. The Very Hungry Caterpillar is not a better literary work than Pride and Prejudice no matter what someone says. A good bit of understanding of matters like these can and should be brought to the judging instead of painting it all as subjective, assuming the judges are educated, and are actually looking at what's happening out on the ice instead of going off of politics. If they are incapable of doing so, fire them.

Even still, The Very Hungry Caterpillar has won multiple literary awards and sold 50 million copies worldwide (almost a copy a minute) compared to Pride and Prejudice having sold about 20 million copies - and it was written over 150 years earlier.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Very_Hungry_Caterpillar

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_and_Prejudice

It's a bit apples and oranges though comparing those two works. It would be like comparing a fun, light-hearted, showman program to something more profound, cerebral, and serious. There are reasons why both types of program can be successful.
 

tral

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
It would be like comparing a fun, light-hearted, showman program to something more profound, cerebral, and serious.
It is nothing like that. It would be like comparing a junior performance with a senior performance, shockingly, hence my choice of a children's book vs classic literature -- two different levels of intellectual literary content, not genres. Your entire argument hinges upon a strawman, or maybe you didn't grasp and understand the underlying context altogether. Or maybe you won't take offence if I should conclude that you think showman-type programs are juniorish?

And what was the point of nitpicking examples as the sole part of my argument, and citing sales, that are hardly things that are a true measure of the quality of most art? And entirely without context of the target audiences and marketing strategies for such audiences? Or maybe Avatar is a better movie than something like Godfather? Or maybe Harry Potter also has comparable (or more!) content as compared to Pride and Prejudice, because it sold more?

You're wrong anyway. There can be several complex, deep themes that can be explored through light-hearted, fun nature and showmanship, making them "profound, cerebral, and serious" programs, which is where the use of the term "art" comes into play. They can make you laugh AND think, Charlie Chaplin's movies were an embodiment of that. If you want me to say that a "fun" program like this is equal to something that is enjoyable to watch but nothing beyond that, I won't.
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
WTT highlights for me? Vanessa and Morgan's final, powerhouse performance of Wicked Game to bring the house down. All else paled by comparison. That really has been the big iconic program of the season for me, and this last outing did it justice.

Team France getting up to ridiculous antics in the kiss and cry was a bit of a highlight too. Baguettes, human pyramids, tutus and an octopus hat. And Brian Joubert in a hair bow. Who needs more? :laugh:
 

Lechat

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Country
France
Dunno about them, but Mao's 2014 SP at Worlds should outscore Rika's program for me. Incidentally, it's also Mao's "Claire de Lune" SP that puts Rika's to absolute shame. The latter should not be higher low 7's for interpretation of this music. She doesn't grasp the purity and seclusion being expressed, the simultaneous sadness and loveliness of the piece.

The biggest climax of the music is entirely thrown away by Rika's program and the footwork is a butchery of what's happening musically. Similarly, the overall positions throughout the program fail to express the music well enough, they are just compulsory. This stands in stark contrast to breathtaking positions and expression Mao achieved, the demure and flowing and extended quality, which brought to life the simultaneous innocence and transcendence of the music. Rika's movements are generically "pretty", with many boxy lines and overly fussy or rambunctious movements that have nothing to do with the music.

This is a perfect example of how incorrectly the PCS are being judged. Let's watch the performances back-to-back and see how stark the difference is:

Mao Asada / Rika Kihira

There should be a huge gap in the PCS between these two programs. Look at the details of the transitions even, the smoothness Asada has going into the jumps, the little hops and turns coming out of the 3Flip+3Loop in Asada's program that perfectly reflect the music, how the movements going into the Lutz reflect the exact cadence of what's happening at that time and don't break from the overall choreographic concept. The effortless entrance into the flying spin from the spiral, the beautiful spread eagle before the 2Axel that is placed there exactly because it goes with the long held note happening in the music. The footwork sequence starting seamlessly after that jump.

Rika was exhausted after worlds and making shows. She was not at her best for the free and the SP was good. Both skaters have their own style.
 
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