2019 World Team Trophy: Thoughts and Highlights

This entire event was worth it just to see Tuk!

Lechat said:

Rika was exhausted after worlds and making shows. She was not at her best for the free and the SP was good. Both skaters have their own style.

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That has nothing to do with what the program content of Asada's SP vs Kihira's is, though, nor does it have anything to do with Asada's skating quality and performance ability at that point vs Kihira's this season. Asada's best performance of Clair de Lune certainly does deserve to outscore Kihira's best performance of her version, at least in PCS, and maybe even overall if you consider Asada's more difficult combo, and much superior spins and footwork. "Different style" can't be an argument to disguise the difference in quality.

tral said:

It is nothing like that. It would be like comparing a junior performance with a senior performance, shockingly, hence my choice of a children's book vs classic literature -- two different levels of intellectual literary content, not genres. Your entire argument hinges upon a strawman, or maybe you didn't grasp and understand the underlying context altogether. Or maybe you won't take offence if I should conclude that you think showman-type programs are juniorish?

And what was the point of nitpicking examples as the sole part of my argument, and citing sales, that are hardly things that are a true measure of the quality of most art? And entirely without context of the target audiences and marketing strategies for such audiences? Or maybe Avatar is a better movie than something like Godfather? Or maybe Harry Potter also has comparable (or more!) content as compared to Pride and Prejudice, because it sold more?

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But junior performances can still have merit in comparison with senior performances - look at a skater like Kostornaia. Are you going to dismiss the quality of her skating just because it's junior?

Your conclusion that I would base showman programs as juniorish is only assuming I agree with your train of logic (that children's books lack artistic merit and are the equivalent of junior programs; and your assertion that junior programs lack the artistic merit of senior programs when there are several examples that would prove otherwise). But like I said, you do you boo - you're entitled to your opinions.

You're welcome to trivialize TVHC as merely a children's book, but that's like saying Jin's Spiderman isn't worth any credence because it's just a fun program and doesn't have the depth of artistry and profound artistry of a more "intellectual" program. Quite contrary to what you're suggesting, I do think programs that are showmanly (or even done by juniors) can have artistic merit and value... that was my point in the first place - that a showmanly program can still have artistic merit even if it's not an "intellectual"/"serious" one.

As far as pointing out sales, the point of that was saying that even if something might not be so cerebral, profound, etc. it can still be valuable and enjoyed by many people -- sometimes moreso than things that are putatively more "profound"/"artistic". I mean, I wouldn't be the first person to refer to quantitative metrics. Some cite certain athletes are better than others because of YouTube hits or net worth. Doesn't make them right or wrong - they're just pointing out stats, right?

What some find "profound" and "artistic," others find "pretentious" and "overwrought."

And, "artistic" doesn't necessarily equate as "better" or "more worthy of viewing."

A few years back, Weaver and Poje skated a program on addiction. It was deep and meaningful and "artistic." I disliked it very much.

This season, the Disco Brits brought the funk and the fun. I've watched that program more than any other this season. For me, it captured the essence of ice dance.

Which was the more meritorious program? I'd say that has quite a lot to do with an individual's point of view.

TontoK said:

What some find "profound" and "artistic," others find "pretentious" and "overwrought."

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Your tastes are your own. What the reward for a creator and/or a performer should be in terms of merit is different from that.

But anyway, I'm not interested in debating artistry on this website, nor did I bring forth those words in my original post. I should have known replying to a strawman argument filled with undercooked thinking would lead to attempts at thread drift with more strawmen being crafted to win some imagined internet debate for reasons "unknown", and would detract from the sole point of my original post, which was merely say that the rules and judging need fixing. I'll end there.

Rika is joining the crowd of normal skaters now. Vulnerable to pressure and expectations. And that's good. Youthful energy can carry you a bit in the very beginning, but to make a longer lasting impact you should need maturity.
I hope the same happens to Trusova next season. You cannot base your entire success on one or two jumps with no plan B.
So happy about Liza. That's the best that happened at WTT.
And I am also hoping the gap between P/C and S/K starts to shrink. I am tired of dance results being published long before the competition.

tral said:

Your tastes are your own. What the reward for a creator and/or a performer should be in terms of merit is different from that.

But anyway, I'm not interested in debating artistry on this website, nor did I bring forth those words in my original post. I should have known replying to a strawman argument filled with undercooked thinking would lead to attempts at thread drift with more strawmen being crafted to win some imagined internet debate for reasons "unknown", and would detract from the sole point of my original post, which was merely say that the rules and judging need fixing. I'll end there.

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I wasn't replying to you. I was making a general comment consistent with the flow of the conversation.

If I were replying to you, I would have quote-posted, as I have done here.

I have no strawman argument. As you note, my tastes are my own. Sometimes they align with the views of the judging panel, sometimes they don't.

It really doesn't matter. I'm a confident man. I don't need the validation of others to reassure myself that what I like has value.

I'm also quite certain about what I don't like. But, following your example, I'll end there.

TontoK said:

What some find "profound" and "artistic," others find "pretentious" and "overwrought."

And, "artistic" doesn't necessarily equate as "better" or "more worthy of viewing."

A few years back, Weaver and Poje skated a program on addiction. It was deep and meaningful and "artistic." I disliked it very much.

This season, the Disco Brits brought the funk and the fun. I've watched that program more than any other this season. For me, it captured the essence of ice dance.

Which was the more meritorious program? I'd say that has quite a lot to do with an individual's point of view.

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You are misusing the definition of what artistry is. "The funk and the fun" in a performance is exactly artistry. It's up to the viewer (judge) to decide how successful the artistry was. How effective was the choreography - did it create meaningful and pleasing shapes, and come together as a cohesive whole. How well did all of those movements go with the music? How much energy and expression and emotion was the skater giving in their performance?

Most people found W/P's 2016 LP to be underwhelming. It wasn't deep and meaningful. Maybe the intent was, but intent alone does not create excellent choreography and interpretation. Hence, it actually wasn't that artistic.

Blades of Passion said:

You are misusing the definition of what artistry is. "The funk and the fun" in a performance is exactly artistry. It's up to the viewer (judge) to decide how successful the artistry was. How effective was the choreography - did it create meaningful and pleasing shapes, and come together as a cohesive whole. How well did all of those movements go with the music? How much energy and expression and emotion was the skater giving in their performance?

Most people found W/P's 2016 LP to be underwhelming. It wasn't deep and meaningful. Maybe the intent was, but intent alone does not create excellent choreography and interpretation. Hence, it actually wasn't that artistic.

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We're probably more in agreement than either of us realize. And, I am probably guilty of using inexact shorthand in expressing what I meant.

I agree with everything you've written.

I suspect for some, the only acceptable standard of artistry is something like Michelle Kwan skating to Rachmaninoff.

And, don't get me wrong, I love that program and others in that vein.

But I'm open to different types of programs, too. Even those without deeper meaning other than just being fun and athletic.

Blades of Passion said:

You are misusing the definition of what artistry is. "The funk and the fun" in a performance is exactly artistry. It's up to the viewer (judge) to decide how successful the artistry was. How effective was the choreography - did it create meaningful and pleasing shapes, and come together as a cohesive whole. How well did all of those movements go with the music? How much energy and expression and emotion was the skater giving in their performance?

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This may be off-topic on this World Team Trophy thread, but does this iconic program have artistic merit? (Gary Beacom, I'm Your Man).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lke0nXpbtH8

TontoK said:

What some find "profound" and "artistic," others find "pretentious" and "overwrought."

And, "artistic" doesn't necessarily equate as "better" or "more worthy of viewing."

A few years back, Weaver and Poje skated a program on addiction. It was deep and meaningful and "artistic." I disliked it very much.

This season, the Disco Brits brought the funk and the fun. I've watched that program more than any other this season. For me, it captured the essence of ice dance.

Which was the more meritorious program? I'd say that has quite a lot to do with an individual's point of view.

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That's a great example. The Brits had one of my favourite free dances of the season, and while it wasn't particularly "profound" it was more entertaining than a lot of programs that tried to be the same contemporary profound we see all the time. I guess some teams will just pander to certain folks (namely, the judges) but it's nice to see other teams taking creative risks,genuinely trying to be entertaining, and (god forbid!) having FUN -- even if it's not the typical "this-is-what-makes-a-program-artistic" stuff.

Blades of Passion said:

You are misusing the definition of what artistry is. "The funk and the fun" in a performance is exactly artistry. It's up to the viewer (judge) to decide how successful the artistry was. How effective was the choreography - did it create meaningful and pleasing shapes, and come together as a cohesive whole. How well did all of those movements go with the music? How much energy and expression and emotion was the skater giving in their performance?

Most people found W/P's 2016 LP to be underwhelming. It wasn't deep and meaningful. Maybe the intent was, but intent alone does not create excellent choreography and interpretation. Hence, it actually wasn't that artistic.

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It wasn't one of their best pieces, but they did come at it from a place of thoughtfulness and expression was definitely there - and at least it was an attempt to do something different. It might not be the expression you were looking for, but it doesn't mean it wasn't there. Same goes for Nathan's FS - you were saying things like it lacking subtlety and expression, and while it may not have fit your personal definition of it, there were plenty of people (the judges included) who disagree.

Even though this was a fluff competition and he already won Worlds, I do have to commend Chen for getting "into" his performances. Still quite a few personal bests at this competition, and it's nice that the audience appreciated the athleticism and artistry they brought to the table even though the important events were done.

It’s extremely funny to see some people criticizing skaters for lacking subtlety when they themselves probably never considered the possibility that they are the ones not subtle enough to notice subtlety.

There's no "subtlety" that anyone is missing in Nathan's program (this seems to be what you're trying to allude to). You yourself couldn't even come up with anything when we analyzed the program. Just fluff talk. You should start by actually pointing out certain things that are so "subtle" if you want to have the discussion.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

It wasn't one of their best pieces, but they did come at it from a place of thoughtfulness

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"Coming from a place of thoughtfulness" is not an examination of choreography and interpretation and performance. That's just pre-skating intent. Similar to how how a choreographer can think up an amazing program, but the given skater can't execute it. W/P's program failed to fully express the music/idea being attempted. We can go through the program and analyze their movement, and it's relation to the music, if you want to. People can disagree on exactly how successful the effort was, but there needs to be reasoning of why. I can point out many areas of that program which I find lacking, where the movement is not creating anything meaningful, the qualities that lead most people to feel it was underwhelming or "pretentious", as TonotoK put it.

As for Nathan's FS, it doesn't lack "my definition" of subtlety and expression and basic skating quality, it exactly has less of those qualities in comparison to other performance that can be compared to. If people were being honest, then they could compare it other performances of whatever their own personal favorites are, and see that a score of 9.5 on PCS is not an accurate mark for what he did. The judges gave him such high scores simply because he was "the frontunner" and delivered a fine performance with the highest technical merit. Feel free to go ahead an argue why Nathan Chen deserves an equal skating skills component to Patrick Chan though. How amusing that will be, I'm waiting.

Mathman said:

This may be off-topic on this World Team Trophy thread, but does this iconic program have artistic merit? (Gary Beacom, I'm Your Man).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lke0nXpbtH8

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Gary Beacom was brilliant, the most artistic skater of his era (not always on full display in competitive programs because of nerves or jump mistakes). Not just that, but the actual skating he could do, amazing blade utilization. His SP footwork in 1984 was better than anyone else's. I don't love the "I'm Your Man" program though, it's too much stopping-and-starting, and too literal. The headstand is really unique and crazy, however.

I thought ostriches weren't well versed in english, but here we are.

shine said:

It’s extremely funny to see some people criticizing skaters for lacking subtlety when they themselves probably never considered the possibility that they are the ones not subtle enough to notice subtlety.

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Laughing at yourself is extremely healthy, I hear :yes:

TontoK said:

I wasn't replying to you. I was making a general comment consistent with the flow of the conversation.

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I realize that, but the first part of my post was definitely what I have to say to people who usually use that line. My comments about strawmen weren't for you to begin with though, sorry for the confusion. Should have used a line break.

Blades of Passion said:

Feel free to go ahead an argue why Nathan Chen deserves an equal skating skills component to Patrick Chan though. How amusing that will be, I'm waiting.

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Motivated reasoning can be a drug. Are you sure you'd like to experience it?

My personal highlight from WTT? Seeing the often shy Shoma Uno come out of his shell and generally have fun with fellow team Japan and international skaters. It's absolutely gratifying to see him end the season in a good note, high spirits and renewed determination.

Other highlights: All teams K&C (the shenanigans!), Keiji Tanaka really bringing it for the team, Liza's stellar "I'LL SHOW YOU' performance in general, Kevin Aymoz SP, Keegan-Shoma-Keiji-Vincent YOLO jumping session during the gala practice - giving the audience SO much than they were expecting, Kaori's excellent new EX that I hope she will keep forever, Shoma's last STH of the season (with added 3A-4T attempt) and the general air of fun and camaraderie. It was a great event to cap off the season, imho.

Blades of Passion said:

There's no "subtlety" that anyone is missing in Nathan's program (this seems to be what you're trying to allude to). You yourself couldn't even come up with anything when we analyzed the program. Just fluff talk. You should start by actually pointing out certain things that are so "subtle" if you want to have the discussion.

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No. Frankly I don’t find Nathan’s FS this year to have much subtlety, or much of anything really. But I was making more of a general statement here - not really about Nathan’s program. As for “coming up with anything to analyze a program” - I can analyze a program just fine. But what we were talking about before was not analyzing a program in terms of what PCS is deserved. We were discussing musicality and artistry. Having read your previous posts, I definitely would not get into your dissertation style of arguing with you about why something is artistic and subtle. I am not going to list out and point to you every single moment of arm waved, head tilted, shoulder raised, or curve drawn to the exact moment of the music and explain the emotion expressed and be like because of a, b, c and d that’s why it’s beautiful. Again, if you can’t see it you can’t see it. Just like I’m not going to dissect for you why a joke is funny if you don’t understand it.

Does anyone know if there could be any ownership/rights issues with Japan for the gala videos? It is the only event in the only isu’s big competition this season that I cannot get gala for on either CBC or isu video feed. Isu by some reason loaded the first half, but not the second. Coupled with Uno’s skate cut out of the isu’s vid in man’s free (?)... I am getting weirded out.

Like, did an isu guy just up and left on vacations in the middle of download or something?

You can perhaps view the gala on the ISU channel here. It is visible in the US.
https://www.eurovisionsports.tv/isu/figure-skating/

This youtube channel is blocked in the US by NBC, but may work elsewhere:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl7FD-bB2o6nkxlTC8s3dnA

dorispulaski said:

You can perhaps view the gala on the ISU channel here. It is visible in the US.
https://www.eurovisionsports.tv/isu/figure-skating/

This youtube channel is blocked in the US by NBC, but may work elsewhere:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl7FD-bB2o6nkxlTC8s3dnA

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aka It's good to be An Honorary Canadian!

Thanks for the links Doris.