Test vs Competition | Golden Skate

Test vs Competition

iceskating21

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
As everyone knows, testing and competition at the same level are totally different. My daughter is struggling with her decision of testing higher or competing first. Do we have some common knowledge that what skills are common for some level's competition?

In my impression, Axel for Pre-Pre competition; double jumps for Pre. So what's for Pre-Juv and Juv?

Eventually, what's the point of holding the test? So the skaters polish the elments to gain advantage or master more advanced elements to gain advantage?

Is there limit for how advanced elements skaters put in their program? For example, they can't put triples in pre-Juv competition, can they?
 

jf12

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
As everyone knows, testing and competition at the same level are totally different. My daughter is struggling with her decision of testing higher or competing first. Do we have some common knowledge that what skills are common for some level's competition?

In my impression, Axel for Pre-Pre competition; double jumps for Pre. So what's for Pre-Juv and Juv?

Eventually, what's the point of holding the test? So the skaters polish the elments to gain advantage or master more advanced elements to gain advantage?

Is there limit for how advanced elements skaters put in their program? For example, they can't put triples in pre-Juv competition, can they?

Check out the USFSA rulebook for limitations on elements for well-balanced programs for each level. For skaters below the juvenile level, which is the first qualifying ‘serious’ level, it’s very much personal and local preference. Some older kids (11-12) with just an axel might have more fun and feel more comfortable competing with people closer to their own age in pre-juv instead of pre-prelim with little kids.

Starting at juvenile it is more important, because of qualifying competitions and at regionals and sectionals you will see a lot of kids trying to maximize the allowed technical content. If this is your goal for your child, the IJS protocols are public on the internet if you want to take a look at what elements people have been doing.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Here you go: https://www.usfsa.org/content/2018-19 Singles FS Chart.pdf

This is obviously for the competitive traditional track, not for the Excel track.

JUMPS
Pre: 2S, 2T or 2Lo
Pre-Juv: 2Lz and 2F
Juv: 2A ( I have heard that skaters are simply not competitive if they can't do a double axel at the Juvenile level)
Int: all triples allowed
Nov: same
Jr: all quads allowed (can be competitive with only triples)
Sr: same

SPINS (for free skate)
Pre: 2 spins, min 3 revolutions each
Pre-Juv: 2 spins, 6 revolutions for one and min 4 rev for the other
Juv: 2 spins, min 8 revolutions for one, min 5 rev for the other
Int: same
Nov: 3 spins, min 10 revolutions each or if flying then min 6 rev (at least one spin should be flying)
Jr: 7 spins, same for revolutions
Sr: same
 

Jetta

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
It begins at the lowest level. If you don’t have an axel the idea is that you won’t be competitive at a pre pre competition. Completely anecdotal but I’ve seen some kids without axels on the podium at pre pre. The quality and speed of the skating really does get rewarded. But I imagine there are regional differences where some areas are much more competitive than others.

So it’s a decision a coach and a skater should make together at each level.
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Here you go: https://www.usfsa.org/content/2018-19 Singles FS Chart.pdf

This is obviously for the competitive traditional track, not for the Excel track.

JUMPS
Juv: 2A ( I have heard that skaters are simply not competitive if they can't do a double axel at the Juvenile level)
Int: all triples allowed
Nov: same
Jr: all quads allowed (can be competitive with only triples)
Sr: same

While this is technically correct, I will add some comments here.

Juv seems to constantly be changing. Now skaters can even throw in 1 triple. True - top skaters will have a 2A but a skater that can complete a clean program (all + GOEs) with only doubles and will still do well. In some years, that clean skater with doubles will even make it to Sectionals.

Intermediate - To be a top skater, a female skater needs a 2A and probably 2 good different triples. But a skater with a clean program with only a 2A will still do well at the summer competitions. A skater with a clean skate and 2A and 1 triple does stand a chance to make it to Sectionals but that really depends on how well the skaters with the higher difficulty elements perform.

Novice - To be a top skater, a female skater probably needs 2-3 good different triples AND good skating skills. A skater with a clean skate and 2A, 1 triple AND good skating stills does stand a good chance to make it to Sectionals but again, that really depends on how well the skaters with the higher difficulty elements perform. At Novice, skating skills and ability to perform matters alot (much more than at Intermediate).

Junior: To do well at summer competitions, a female skater probably needs 3-4 good different triples AND good skating skills; no quads needed.

Senior: To do well at summer competitions, a female skater probably needs 3-4 good different triples AND good skating skills.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
And at least from novice level if not intermediate, the competitive boys are probably averaging harder jump content than the competitive girls. However, there are a lot fewer competitive boys, so it's more possible for a boy with average content/quality to sneak into the top 4 just by skating clean.

If they even attend the handful of summer competitions with more than 4 boys in a level.
 

iceskating21

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Thanks for the replies! Very useful information.

Specifically, my daughter has clean Axel, double flip, double lutz, double loop. Her double Salchow and double Toe loop are not consistent. She hasn't landed double Axel yet. She is fine with sit spin and its variations, Camel spin and its variations, and most upright spins. She is working on layback spin, changing foot and flying entry.

Is she far from competing at pre-juvenile? Or Juvenile? She is trying to make decision with her coach. Her coach doesn't often take students to compete and has no interest either. So I would like to know a second opinion.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That sounds like average content for pre-juvenile, below average for juvenile, in my area.

But quality (of the elements and the skating and the performance) matters a lot. If she skates fast and jumps high and fully rotates her jumps and gets plenty of revolutions in each spin position, and looks good and enthusiastic and musical while doing it, she'd do fine in juvenile. If she's still getting comfortable with the jumps and spins she's working on, then she'd be better off in pre-juvenile while she consolidates and improves those skills and adds more.

It's my impression that How Well counts for a lot more than What with most judges.

Why not enter a pre-juvenile competition or two and see how she does?

Even before that, see if you can get to watch some competitions at her level. If there are any nonqualifying competitions being held near you soon, even if your daughter is not ready to enter, go and watch, especially the events at the level(s) she is thinking of competing in.

If that's not possible, try watching some juvenile qualifying rounds from last year's regionals at https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=4 (scroll down to find the regionals; after you click on the region you want to watch, you may need to scroll again and click Show More to find the qual rounds, e.g., QRA, QRB, etc.).

Watching on video won't give you a sense of how fast or slow each of the skaters are or some other qualitative aspects of the way they move across the ice.

But if you watch at least one whole qualifying group from your region, you should get a general sense of the range of content that juveniles in your region tend to include.
 

Ykai

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2019
I agree with gkelly on levels and competition. But depending on the coaches, some would push their skaters to compete in juvenile at an early stage (when not all of the double jumps are solid and with no double axel) in local competitions, so that they gain more experience competing. Also for competing in juvenile, you need to be 13 or younger.
 

silver.blades

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Country
Canada
I'd say the big thing is consider either changing coaches or speaking with your existing coach about a team coaching approach. If you can find a local coach with experience with competitions for a second opinion, that would be ideal. Also, you mentioned that your current coach doesn't really have an interest in taking skaters to compete, so it might not be a good fit in the long run.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
There's a new type of competition called "Excel". How is it compared to traditional one?

There are stricter limits on the kinds of elements that are allowed, and the upper levels do not have short programs.

The Excel series, which takes place at various club competitions during the spring and is having its national "festival" final next week, uses IJS judging for Preliminary "Excel Plus" level and above. Competitions that are not part of the series, especially those that take place at other times of year, and have fewer Excel entries will probably use 6.0 judging, at least for the next few years.

You can find the standard track program requirements for each level at https://www.usfigureskating.org/story?id=84109
and the Excel program requirements for each level at https://www.usfigureskating.org/story?id=91447&menu=programs

The Preliminary, Pre-Juvenile, and Juvenile "Plus" levels allow slightly more jump difficulty than the corresponding regular Excel levels and the minimum test requirements, but not as much as is allowed in standard track competition at those levels.
 

Ykai

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2019
There are stricter limits on the kinds of elements that are allowed, and the upper levels do not have short programs.

The Excel series, which takes place at various club competitions during the spring and is having its national "festival" final next week, uses IJS judging for Preliminary "Excel Plus" level and above. Competitions that are not part of the series, especially those that take place at other times of year, and have fewer Excel entries will probably use 6.0 judging, at least for the next few years.

You can find the standard track program requirements for each level at https://www.usfigureskating.org/story?id=84109
and the Excel program requirements for each level at https://www.usfigureskating.org/story?id=91447&menu=programs

The Preliminary, Pre-Juvenile, and Juvenile "Plus" levels allow slightly more jump difficulty than the corresponding regular Excel levels and the minimum test requirements, but not as much as is allowed in standard track competition at those levels.

To have so many different categories and difficulty levels associated with the different categories is very confusing. I wonder what is the advantage to have the Plus and Excel tracks and how competitors should choose which competition to go to.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Yes, it is confusing, especially to kids and parents entering the sport. But I think the aim is to offer opportunities for meaningful competition for skaters who start at different ages and who have different levels of commitment to training.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003

Long story long, I think there are a couple of things at play:

US Figure Skating has periodically added new competition levels below or between the levels that originally existed, to accommodate skaters who weren't yet ready or never would be ready to compete at the then-lowest standard competitive levels but already wanted to get some experience competing, against skaters of similar skill levels.

That's how we got levels called Intermediate, Juvenile, and Preliminary as lower than "Novice" since the mid-20th century, and Pre-Juvenile and Pre-Preliminary and No-Test since the 1990s. And Open Juvenile (formerly called "Pre-Intermediate"). Because the majority of members are not just beginners but are also not ready for (or too old for) Juvenile competition, let alone Novice, but they do want to compete.

But it doesn't make sense to have someone who is almost but not quite good enough for Juvenile or Intermediate compete against someone who is barely more than a beginner. Hence the proliferation of lower competition levels, some with awkward or counterintuitive names.

After figures were discontinued in competition and the numbered figure tests no longer required, moving up the competitive ladder has been determined by passing Moves in the Field and freeskating tests with the same names as the competitive levels. The freeskating tests require only the minimum technical content expected of skaters at that level.

Serious competitors want to do more than what's required on the test in order to get an advantage in competition. The most talented, most dedicated competitors have been including much harder jump content than the minimums. So USFS instituted some maximum jump content at each level, before the jump inflation got out of hand to the point of, e.g., double axels being attempted in Preliminary events. The majority of competitors at each level include content somewhere lower than the maximum allowed and the minimum required.

But as double axels and triple jumps have been required in the short programs at junior and senior levels, many skaters who are capable of passing the senior test are not capable of attempting those jumps necessary to compete in standard competition at the higher levels.

On the other end of the spectrum, events for beginners still at learn-to-skate levels have been integrated into nonqualifying competitions held by US Figure Skating clubs. These include large numbers of skaters whose skating experience may be measured in months or even weeks rather than years; skaters in earlier stages of transitioning from "skating" to "figure skating" don't want to compete against skaters who have passed multiple Moves in the Field tests but stay in the "No Test" freestyle level until they master the axel.

And skaters at all levels who start at older ages, who don't have access to as much ice time, or who just choose not to train as many hours per week will generally progress more slowly than skaters who have been training hard toward serious competition since early childhood.

Passing tests is often a better means than competition results for these skaters to set goals and measure progress. But they may also want to compete, and as they pass more tests with just the minimum required test content, they will find themselves further and further behind not only the top competitors but also the average competitors at their test level.

USFS didn't want these more recreational skaters to just get discouraged and quit, so they have been trying to develop other tracks to meet the needs of less serious skaters who do want to compete. For a number of years they tried something called "Test Track" competition, which allowed only the elements required on the test, or maybe one or two from the next level up, but nothing near what the top or even average competitors were doing at that level. This also included the introduction of the Beginner and High Beginner competition levels, below No Test.

Test Track wasn't very popular at the test higher levels. So the Excel track was just this year introduced in its place, rebranded and including a qualifying series to lead to a national festival. I'm not sure exactly what the intended goals were behind the rebranding, other than to make it seem more attractive than "Test Track." At its best, I would hope it's trying to inspire skaters who are not on track to master triple jumps and level 4 spins and step sequences to try to excel at what they can do and to compete against other skaters of similar age and skill level while continuing to move up the testing ladder.
 

Ykai

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2019

Long story long, I think there are a couple of things at play:

US Figure Skating has periodically added new competition levels below or between the levels that originally existed, to accommodate skaters who weren't yet ready or never would be ready to compete at the then-lowest standard competitive levels but already wanted to get some experience competing, against skaters of similar skill levels.

That's how we got levels called Intermediate, Juvenile, and Preliminary as lower than "Novice" since the mid-20th century, and Pre-Juvenile and Pre-Preliminary and No-Test since the 1990s. And Open Juvenile (formerly called "Pre-Intermediate"). Because the majority of members are not just beginners but are also not ready for (or too old for) Juvenile competition, let alone Novice, but they do want to compete.

But it doesn't make sense to have someone who is almost but not quite good enough for Juvenile or Intermediate compete against someone who is barely more than a beginner. Hence the proliferation of lower competition levels, some with awkward or counterintuitive names.

After figures were discontinued in competition and the numbered figure tests no longer required, moving up the competitive ladder has been determined by passing Moves in the Field and freeskating tests with the same names as the competitive levels. The freeskating tests require only the minimum technical content expected of skaters at that level.

Serious competitors want to do more than what's required on the test in order to get an advantage in competition. The most talented, most dedicated competitors have been including much harder jump content than the minimums. So USFS instituted some maximum jump content at each level, before the jump inflation got out of hand to the point of, e.g., double axels being attempted in Preliminary events. The majority of competitors at each level include content somewhere lower than the maximum allowed and the minimum required.

But as double axels and triple jumps have been required in the short programs at junior and senior levels, many skaters who are capable of passing the senior test are not capable of attempting those jumps necessary to compete in standard competition at the higher levels.

On the other end of the spectrum, events for beginners still at learn-to-skate levels have been integrated into nonqualifying competitions held by US Figure Skating clubs. These include large numbers of skaters whose skating experience may be measured in months or even weeks rather than years; skaters in earlier stages of transitioning from "skating" to "figure skating" don't want to compete against skaters who have passed multiple Moves in the Field tests but stay in the "No Test" freestyle level until they master the axel.

And skaters at all levels who start at older ages, who don't have access to as much ice time, or who just choose not to train as many hours per week will generally progress more slowly than skaters who have been training hard toward serious competition since early childhood.

Passing tests is often a better means than competition results for these skaters to set goals and measure progress. But they may also want to compete, and as they pass more tests with just the minimum required test content, they will find themselves further and further behind not only the top competitors but also the average competitors at their test level.

USFS didn't want these more recreational skaters to just get discouraged and quit, so they have been trying to develop other tracks to meet the needs of less serious skaters who do want to compete. For a number of years they tried something called "Test Track" competition, which allowed only the elements required on the test, or maybe one or two from the next level up, but nothing near what the top or even average competitors were doing at that level. This also included the introduction of the Beginner and High Beginner competition levels, below No Test.

Test Track wasn't very popular at the test higher levels. So the Excel track was just this year introduced in its place, rebranded and including a qualifying series to lead to a national festival. I'm not sure exactly what the intended goals were behind the rebranding, other than to make it seem more attractive than "Test Track." At its best, I would hope it's trying to inspire skaters who are not on track to master triple jumps and level 4 spins and step sequences to try to excel at what they can do and to compete against other skaters of similar age and skill level while continuing to move up the testing ladder.

Thank you for putting the effort to write this long piece. It is truly informative and educational, and is greatly appreciated.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Test Track wasn't very popular at the test higher levels. So the Excel track was just this year introduced in its place, rebranded and including a qualifying series to lead to a national festival. I'm not sure exactly what the intended goals were behind the rebranding, other than to make it seem more attractive than "Test Track." At its best, I would hope it's trying to inspire skaters who are not on track to master triple jumps and level 4 spins and step sequences to try to excel at what they can do and to compete against other skaters of similar age and skill level while continuing to move up the testing ladder.

The Excel program, according to the USFS:
"The primary mission of this program is to inspire more of our young athletes to
continue training and remain committed to participating in figure skating by
providing them with events at a level that allows them to showcase their strengths.
Additionally, we view this program as an opportunity for skaters and coaches to
familiarize themselves with the fundamentals of the International Judging System (IJS)
through a gradual introduction, rather than all at once. The substitution of a
choreographic step sequence throughout the levels and limits for spins at the lower
levels provides a phased approach which allows skaters to become proficient and
confident with the IJS."
https://fs12.formsite.com/USFSAIT/images/2019_Excel_Series_Handbook.pdf
 

iceskating21

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Thank you! Very educational.

So I feel that at the same level, Excel has lower requirements than traditional ones.
 

Sunshine247

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
I have two skaters and we’ve loved competing in the new excel series. We’ve only been skating for coming up on 3 years(our second year in competitions) so we don’t know any different system. In our area it seems really popular and they’ve had some good competition. The judges have had a good consistent criteria and the kids have benefited from competing with others more directly at their level. It would have been very disheartening to skate against kids with a huge range of skill and be stuck at the bottom. There are a few coaches at our rink that like to put their skaters right into the no test competitions but a good majority have embraced the excel series.

In addition my one skater is older. While she did catch up some, she is most likely going to concentrate on testing since she has two more years to skate realistically. She does love to compete since it’s a chance to wear a pretty dress and perform a program. I’m happy she will have a chance to do both. She should be able to set some goals and be able to be proud of what she can accomplish in her limited time.

I’ve been having to make some choices about entering competitions and testing for both my skaters which needs another post likely! So all this discussion is great.
 
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