Future of figure skating

Mathman said:

I think we are using the word "difficulty" in two different senses. I just mean, what is hard to accomplish, rather than "what is the ISU base value." A really spectacular full Russian split jump has no zero base value, but it is hard to achieve even so. (However, a mediocre one is easy, as we see in almost every program.)

[Dick Button soars above Central Park in the 1950s. T oo bad you can't actually point your toes in a skating boot.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7e/cf/7d/7ecf7dfe485e9da657d1e7d408d3b2df.jpg ]

As for the other meaning of "difficult element" -- a triple Lutz, regardless of quality, is inherently more difficult to perform than a triple toe loop, a quad is more difficult than a triple. etc. -- that's true enough.

But then, too, it seems to be really, really hard to do a quad loop (at least only one or two men in the world can make a serious attempt at one), whereas quad Lutzes are becoming commonplace, even for 14-year old girls. I am always surprised anew that the first triple jump was not an "easy" toe or Salchow, but a "difficult" loop jump. Maybe for some reason it it wasn't so difficult for Dick Button back then.]

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So "difficulty" is relative to the skater i guess. ISU should maybe re-work the table of points per element then. Or even maybe erase the BV concept.

About 4lz. It's probably the most cheated jump now.

yume said:

Free program is less and less "free".

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It isn't a "free" program anymore. It is a long program. Nothing about it is free. It's mathmatical skating for points. Do x, y, z, etc. No time for anything else.

yume said:

So "difficulty" is relative to the skater i guess. ISU should maybe re-work the table of points per element then.

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It is certainly true that skaters have individual idiosyncrasies. Kristi Yamaguchi could do a good 3Lz+3T combo, but had a terrible time with a triple Salchow.

Still, I don't see anything wrong with the ISU saying, "in general a triple flip is harder for most skaters to master than a triple toe, so a flip gets a higher starting value. And a well-done triple flip is more praiseworthy than an mediocre one -- that's where GOE comes in.

moonvine said:

It isn't a "free" program anymore. It is a long program. Nothing about it is free. It's mathmatical skating for points. Do x, y, z, etc. No time for anything else.

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In this, figure skating is like any other sport. In basketball you try to get as many points as you can. In hockey you try to score more goals than the other team.

Where I think figure skating goes wrong is this: we already have basketball and hockey. Why do we need figure skating at all?

Instead of trying to make skating "more like other sports" we should celebrate and reward what makes it different from other sports.

Mathman said:

It is certainly true that skaters have individual idiosyncrasies. Kristi Yamaguchi could do a good 3Lz+3T combo, but had a terrible time with a triple Salchow.

Still, I don't see anything wrong with the ISU saying, "in general a triple flip is harder for most skaters to master than a triple toe, so a flip gets a higher starting value. And a well-done triple flip is more praiseworthy than an mediocre one -- that's where GOE comes in.
.

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Yes. There is a rare case like Emmy Ma. She lands the 3F and 3lz. But i don't recall seeing her attempt a 3T. And the only time i've seen her land a 3S iirc, is at this year nats.
Lucky for her, the jumps that she had mastered are the ones that worth the most.

I see no problem either in saying that a 3F should worth more than a 3T.

But (a total different debate), should we say that those who jumps perfectly 3F and 3lz but can't jump the "easiest" jumps 3T, 3S or 3lo are better jumpers than those who master 3T, 3S and 3lo but can't jump 3F or 3lz?
Or,
Those who have really beautiful jumps but have only 3 or 4 triples (and have 3Lz and 3F), are they better jumpers than those who have all triples with average quality?

I think this recent quote from Shoma is pertinent to this:

Q: Are there any changes in the way you approach things?

This doesn’t necessarily mean that the rule changes are bad but the main focus has definitely shifted to jumps. if you can’t jump, you can’t win and if you can’t win, things aren’t as fun. For me as well, my programs have shifted to focusing on jumps in recent years. The transitions were also for the sake of connecting jumps rather than transitions for the sake of connecting the program as a whole. Last time I talked to David in Korea, I told him I’d like to create a program that would be something I could create to completion, rather than a program made for jumps.” (s) (s)

I thought it was interesting to hear this from a skater since the main focus of the rule changes were to improve quality. I think in a few instances It probably helped, the most notorious one being Jason and his 2nd in the short at Worlds. My interpretation of Shoma's quote it that what it managed was to prioritize clean performances and obviously without jumps you can't achieve that. But I'm not sure it gave that much weight to the quality of the elements themselves since there has been debates around edge calls, UR calls, GOE as much as ever.

Satoko also said that she can't land a 3A yet, but wants to put one in the free skate in hopes that she'll feel that she has to land it even if she never landed it cleanly in practice. (s) Thought this was puzzling since I assume it takes time till you can include an element with great quality in a program. She has been saying that she wants to do a 3A since 2016 though. Then she was injured and couldn't work on it anymore. I suppose the rise of quads/3A in ladies was the final push for her to consider it seriously again. We'll probably see a lot of trial and error with the quad/3A in ladies next season.

Lambari said:

Q: Are there any changes in the way you approach things?

A (Shoma Uno): This doesn’t necessarily mean that the rule changes are bad but the main focus has definitely shifted to jumps. ... For me as well, my programs have shifted to focusing on jumps in recent years. The transitions were also for the sake of connecting jumps rather than transitions for the sake of connecting the program as a whole. ...

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Well, the focus has always been on jumps, even back in the 6.0 days. If you can't jump you won't win.

What I think the rule changes of the past two years has done is to focus more on the quality of jumps rather than the quality of the program as a whole. Shoma's comment about transitions is on target here. Transitions into jumps are rewarded, but just plain old transtitions as part of the program, not so much.

Plus, the idea (new in 2018-19) to have base values for Lz e and Lz <, different from the base value of Lz (correct), means that you have to concentrate more on the quality of the jump and you can't just throw anything out there and call it a quad Lutz.

This is further reinforced by the changes in jump GOE. A triple Lutz with +4 GOE gets you 2.36 bonus points. A 4Lz e or a 4Lz < with +4 GOE translates into 2.64 extra points. But for a genuine 4Lz, +4 GOE means an extra 4,60 -- more than a whole extra triple toe or triple Salchow, just for doing your 4Lz right.

1. I don’t think the future of figure skating rests on pairs or ice dance. As hard as I’ve tried, ice and pairs doesn’t stir in me the same level of excitement (the ups and downs) as singles.


2. Longevity (number of years in competition) is a factor that limits potential for fs popularity. Yuzuru seems to be the rare exception, but almost all of today’s top skaters aren’t able to stay on top for more than 1 Olympic cycle. The sport has really cannibalized itself by rewarding technically difficult but ugly skating/jumps.

Lambari said:

Satoko also said that she can't land a 3A yet, but wants to put one in the free skate in hopes that she'll feel that she has to land it even if she never landed it cleanly in practice.

Thought this was puzzling since I assume it takes time till you can include an element with great quality in a program...

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It does seem like an unusual way to add content -- throw yourself into the deep end of the pool , sink or swim. Most coaches have some sort of rule like, you have to land it 80% of the time in practice before you can put it in the actual program.

Still, no guts no glory. If you have the moxie to challenge the learning curve in front of thousands of fans instead of in the privacy of your own training rink, who am I say you're wrong?

I think that to make FS bit more understandable for viewers judges should evaluate the GOE without taking base value into consideration. I have seen quad jumps with long preparation and wonky landing being given +2+3 while triples of same or better quality get -1 or 0. That way skaters with good triples could get above skaters with bad quads.

Mathman said:

Well, the focus has always been on jumps, even back in the 6.0 days. If you can't jump you won't win.

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I agree, still thought it was interesting how based on quotes from skaters some of them feel that they are even more in emphasis.

Mathman said:

Plus, the idea (new in 2018-19) to have base values for Lz e and Lz <, different from the base value of Lz (correct), means that you have to concentrate more on the quality of the jump and you can't just throw anything out there and call it a quad Lutz.

This is further reinforced by the changes in jump GOE. A triple Lutz with +4 GOE gets you 2.36 bonus points. A 4Lz e or a 4Lz < with +4 GOE translates into 2.64 extra points. But for a genuine 4Lz, +4 GOE means an extra 4,60 -- more than a whole extra triple toe or triple Salchow, just for doing your 4Lz right.

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I think we're in for a few seasons of seeing more 4Lz</ 4Lz e (same for the rest of the quads/3A) because in the short term including them already in the program despite not having a genuine 4Lz and landing them reaps more rewards than a triple (and a debatable PCS bonus) and it's just an inevitable transition phase. This may be Satoko's reasoning to include a 3A already. It's up to the judging to mark them as such. Most skaters can't afford to take the time to perfect them before including it, specially the ones from big federations when a spot in the team isn't warranted, and those from smaller ones might need it to get noticed. Still, someone will always (I hope) come along with a genuine 4Lz plus quality in the other elements and come out on top, indirectly pushing the field to perfect it.