Future of figure skating | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Future of figure skating

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Everyone can do a spin. Not everyone can do an absolutely stunning spin like Jason Brown or what Lambiel used to do. Everyone can do a spiral. Not everyone can do a spiral like Sasha Cohen. Everyone can do footwork. Not everyone can do beautiful intricate footwork. None of these things are rewarded now in any substantial way.

Yes to everything.
And everyone can jump. Not everyone can jump all 6 triples with textbook technique like Tuktamysheva. And she's not rewarded in any substantial way compared to almost every other lady.
Or.
Every lady can apparently jump a 3lz. But not everyone in top 12 could jump a real 3lz like Rika Kihira at worlds. And she didn't get rewarded in any substantial way for that.
The beauty of figure skating.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I hope figure skating will always be with us as it is one of my favorite sports. I do think it survival depends on marketable and interesting stars. Because the US is so large and huge in media having successful and marketable stars is important. Stabilizing the scoring system is important. The attempt to be more fair arguably creates more "human" input and interpretation to marking. Fanatics exist here on GS but the rest of the world can't tell an edge from a toe jump or change of edge let alone why a lutz is worth more than a salchow. Add to the fact the values of the base score for tricks keep changing as well as the GOE factors this new system is hard to understand for the average Olympic fan. The old 6.0 system forall it issues was somewaht stable and known. Stable stars might help so Hanyu has helped but the ladies seem to change a fair amount with Japan and Russia provide new challenger who then disappear. There is no 10 year superstar like Michelle Kwan or standards like Irina Slutskaya, Maria Butyrskaya, Sasha Cohen or even Carolina Kostner who has been missing for a while. Now everyone is so disposable in the ladies.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
Pairs should be shifted more towards ice dance. There's no need for combination jumps in pairs programs(make them all sequences if you must)... they hurt the flow of the program. I question the need for a death spiral in every program. I question why there is no step sequence in the free skate while there are 3 over head lifts the audience probably can't tell apart. I like twist lifts, but their position in the programs are very predictable to the point where I wouldn't mind them restricted to one of the programs. Pairs seem to do a better job with side by side spins vs pair spins(because of the mismatch in body types) yet they decided to go with pair spins in the free skate. I'd like to see hand-in-hand skating and ice dance like lifts.

As pairs is my favourite, I'll stick to this discipline in how I would like the sport to evolve. First of all: bring back the side by side spins in the FS. I really missed them this last season, while to be honest the pair spin is too close to the dance spin to be a required element for the pairs. And although I love the development to have a shift towards more ice dance in the programmes, the spin definitely is not one of the dance elements I would choose (in fact I wouldn't mind if they cut the spin in ID altogether. But I digress). To me pairs skating is about the combination of singles elements, typical pairs elements, synchronicity and great choreography. The side by side spins were and are a typical pairs element demanding synchronicity to look good. I wouldn't mind having two instead of three over head lifts, while additional lifts with dance holds would be just great (I loved the one Vanessa and Morgan included in their programme), just don't make them compulsory. They can be part of the choreography. I actually like the combination side by side jumps, although I'm perfectly okay with a sequence too. It's a pity nobody is doing quad throws or quad twists any more, I'm really hoping they will return once everybody had gotten used to the new BV's. Having said that, a soaring, high, twist (like S/M's in 2017/2017) is just as great as a quad version. by the way, my all-time favourite element is the twist lift. True, it would be nice if couples would experiment a bit more with the placing in the programmes, but they're always spectacular to watch. In fact during the Challenge cup I managed to sit right in the corner where the twists usually are done, and that was just great! So, please, keep twists in both the SP and the LP!
 

EyesOfLove

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Yes to everything.
And everyone can jump. Not everyone can jump all 6 triples with textbook technique like Tuktamysheva. And she's not rewarded in any substantial way compared to almost every other lady.
Or.
Every lady can apparently jump a 3lz. But not everyone in top 12 could jump a real 3lz like Rika Kihira at worlds. And she didn't get rewarded in any substantial way for that.
The beauty of figure skating.

If you consider the quality of jumps, doesn't it dampen your predication of a program's difficulty on the number of triple jumps completed (and hence your argument that Kim's programs in 2010 and 2013 were not technically more difficult - or, easier - than Yamaguchi's in 1992)? And I'll forebear from mentioning the number of combination jumps or difficulty of spins and footworks, etc.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
If you consider the quality of jumps, doesn't it dampen your predication of a program's difficulty on the number of triple jumps completed (and hence your argument that Kim's programs in 2010 and 2013 were not materially more difficult - or, easier - than Yamaguchi's in 1992)?

No.
Difficulty and quality are different.
That's why IJS created BV and GOE.
Difficulty=BV
GOE= quality.

If two skaters land a 3lz-3T, both with the right edge on lutz, it's the same difficulty. If the combo of skater A is bigger than the combo of skater B, it's not the same quality. Skater A have the same difficulty than skater B, but better quality.
If skater A lands a 3lz-3T with the wrong edge on the lutz, his/her combo doesn't have the same difficulty than skater B combo. IJS agree since there is a BV reduction for wrong edge.

If Yamaguchi had a flutz, i can say that her layout was slightly easier than Kim's (though Yamaguchi's program in 91-92 had 7 planned triples while Kim had 6). If her edge was right, then it was the same difficulty.

About spins, steps, requirements were differents. That's why the only comparable elements imo are jumps (outside the combos requirements).
 

EyesOfLove

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
No.
Difficulty and quality are different.
That's why IJS created BV and GOE.
Difficulty=BV
GOE= quality.

If two skaters land a 3lz-3T, both with the right edge on lutz, it's the same difficulty. If the combo of skater A is bigger than the combo of skater B, it's not the same quality. Skater A have the same difficulty than skater B, but better quality.
If skater A lands a 3lz-3T with the wrong edge on the lutz, his/her combo doesn't have the same difficulty than skater B combo. IJS agree since there is a BV reduction for wrong edge.

If Yamaguchi had a flutz, i can say that her layout was slightly easier than Kim's. If her edge was right, then it was the same difficulty.

About spins, steps, requirements were differents. That's why the only comparable elements imo are jumps (outside the combos requirements).

And though I couldn't find the slow-mos for her lutz at Albertville, I don't think it wholly unreasonable to think she did:

https://youtu.be/pqZm6sW7ph0?t=200
https://youtu.be/MNmt6AHYfk8?t=305
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Kristi looks OK to me.

The discussion of quality versus difficulty is interesting, though. It is more difficult (in the ordinary sense of the word, if not the ISU sense) to execute a jump with high quality. If it weren't, everyone would be doing high quality jumps.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
The discussion of quality versus difficulty is interesting, though. It is more difficult (in the ordinary sense of the word, if not the ISU sense) to execute a jump with high quality. If it weren't, everyone would be doing high quality jumps.
Interesting indeed. Why do you think it is more difficult? I guess that textbook or "good technique" play a part..... though i think the definition of high quality jump implies good technique already.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Interesting indeed. Why do you think it is more difficult?

Well, I am looking at the bullet points for what the ISU regards as "high quality" (GOE).

1) Very good height and very good length. -- That's hard to achieve.

2) Good take-off and landing. -- I'm not so sure about that one. Developing good technique actually makes the jump "easier."

3) Effortless throughout. -- It's very hard to be effortless. :)

4) Steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry. -- This makes the jump harder.

5) Very good body position from take-off to landing. -- This one, like #2, is a matter of technique that makes the jump "easier," IMHO.

6) Element matches the music. -- Not easy to achieve. It would be easier just to ignore the music.
 
Last edited:

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Well, I am looking at the bullet points for what the ISU regards as "high quality" (GOE).

1) Very good height and very good length. -- That's hard to achieve.

2) Good take-off and landing. -- I'm not so sure about that one. Developing good technique actually makes the jump "easier."

3) Effortless throughout. -- It's very hard to be effortless. :)

4) Steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry. -- This makes the jump harder.

5) Very good body position from take-off to landing. -- This one, like #2, is a matter of technique that makes the jump "easier," IMHO.

6) Element matches the music. -- Not easy to acieve. It would be easier to just ignore the music.

I like this comment. I wouldn't mind seeing ladies and gentlemen taking a step back, or at least leveling off in the technical elements to re-focus on artistry. Just my opinion.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
I'd give more points to spins.

- 10% higher bv for each spin

- Accelerating within the spin is a bonus to get a level 5.

- Unique variations very few skaters in the world can do, should be rewarded more.

- 5% bonus for a flying spin if it is at the end of a free program. (i've often heard from skaters and coaches in the past how difficult that can be especially in the free program on tired legs)

-----------------------------------

2-5% bonus (only of that element) if you end the program with a jump.

prerotation penalty. (same as underrotations)

The rest of the rules are fine, it's just a matter of using them properly.
 

Jeanie19

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Country
United-States
I'd give more points to spins.

- 10% higher bv for each spin

- Accelerating within the spin is a bonus to get a level 5.

- Unique variations very few skaters in the world can do, should be rewarded more.

- 5% bonus for a flying spin if it is at the end of a free program. (i've often heard from skaters and coaches in the past how difficult that can be especially in the free program on tired legs)

-----------------------------------

2-5% bonus (only of that element) if you end the program with a jump.

prerotation penalty. (same as underrotations)

The rest of the rules are fine, it's just a matter of using them properly.

On spins. Jason, Deniss and Daniel Grassl are not rewarded for their spins being so jaw dropping.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
On spins. Jason, Deniss and Daniel Grassl are not rewarded for their spins being so jaw dropping.

:bow:

I become so frustrated when the magnificence and athletic power of a wonderful spin is not rewarded.

As far as I’m concerned, such spins should have all the BV and GOE:biggrin:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
2-5% bonus (only of that element) if you end the program with a jump.

:rock: It is so cool when skaters do that. Carolina Kostner had a program where she did a triple Salchow right at the very end. When successful, it took my breath away.

On spins. Jason, Deniss and Daniel Grassl are not rewarded for their spins being so jaw dropping.

I am not sure that they are not. Not in base value for the element, but in overall quality of the program. Jason got second in the short program at worlds. He got 3s and 4s with a few 5s in GOE on all his spins, plus who knows how much his PCSs benefitted.
 
Last edited:

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Not everyone can jump all 6 triples with textbook technique like Tuktamysheva. And she's not rewarded in any substantial way compared to almost every other lady.

This is a good point. While great elements are usually rewarded, like Daleman deservedly getting top scores across the board for her 3T-3T when she does it well, the advantage is diminished when other women get almost as high marks for much lower quality elements. I thought the wider range of PCS scores would help, but judges are using the highest scores as regularly as before.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Well, I am looking at the bullet points for what the ISU regards as "high quality" (GOE).

1) Very good height and very good length. -- That's hard to achieve.

2) Good take-off and landing. -- I'm not so sure about that one. Developing good technique actually makes the jump "easier."

3) Effortless throughout. -- It's very hard to be effortless. :)

4) Steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry. -- This makes the jump harder.

5) Very good body position from take-off to landing. -- This one, like #2, is a matter of technique that makes the jump "easier," IMHO.

6) Element matches the music. -- Not easy to acieve. It would be easier to just ignore the music.

I guess that scoring system agrees with you about high quality jumps being more difficult. Kaori Sakamoto's 3F-3T got more points than some good 3lz-3Ts in her SP at nats https://mobile.twitter.com/figureskatingm1/status/1079945345260376064 Thanks to huge GOEs. But it's understable because difficulty (BV) is close. But when BV gap is larger, the easiest jump shouldn't and couldn't beat the hardest jump. For example a excellent 3T-3T shouldn't beat an average true 3lz-3T. Same for a 3lz that hit all the bullets against a average quad. Because if those higher BV elements have lower quality, it's because they are harder so it's harder to deliver them with high quality.


-----------------------------------

2-5% bonus (only of that element) if you end the program with a jump.

prerotation penalty. (same as underrotations)

.
Good idea. Last season, Yuhana Yokoi was finishing her free skate with her biggest element (2A-3T-2T). It was litteraly the last thing she did. That deserved extra points. There is also Mai Mihara's 3F in the 2 last seconds of her SP in 2017 or Yuna Shiraiwa 3lo right at he end of her free program this season. I love jump ending programs.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Unless corruption is dealt with, the sport will die.

I take a longer view. Figure skating has been dealing with internal politics and biased judging since the 1800s. It didn't kill the sport in the days of Ulrich Salchow or of Sonja Henie, or even of Sale/Pelletier and Bereznaya/Sikharulidze.

Whether figure skating will gradually die out as a popular spectator sport (along with the whole idea of the Winter Olympics), though, and become a niche participatory sport of interest only to the skaters themselves and their parents -- that is another question. I rather think that it will, for a variety of reasons, the main one being general cultural drift in entertainment tastes.

Specifically about the United States, people blame unenthusiastic fan support on the current lack of a lady superstar -- a Peggy Fleming or a Michelle Kwan of those heady olden times -- to rally us around the flag. What I wish is that U.S. figure skating fans would grab onto what they have instead of wish for what they don't have. Why can't we fall in love with Yuzuru Hanyu or Alina Zagitova? Look at tennis. Lacking a U.S. men's superstar*, U.S. tennis enthusiasts have no problem lining up to root for Roger Federer or Raphael Nadal or Novak Djokovic.

[* Of course in skating we do have a men's superstar in Nathan Chen. Line forms at the right. :) ]
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But when BV gap is larger, the easiest jump shouldn't and couldn't beat the hardest jump. For example a excellent 3T-3T shouldn't beat an average true 3lz-3T. Same for a 3lz that hit all the bullets against a average quad. Because if those higher BV elements have lower quality, it's because they are harder so it's harder to deliver them with high quality.

I think we are using the word "difficulty" in two different senses. I just mean, what is hard to accomplish, rather than "what is the ISU base value." A really spectacular full Russian split jump has zero base value, but it is hard to achieve even so. (However, a mediocre one is easy, as we see in almost every program.)

[Dick Button soars above Central Park in the 1950s. T oo bad you can't actually point your toes in a skating boot. ;)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7e/cf/7d/7ecf7dfe485e9da657d1e7d408d3b2df.jpg ]

As for the other meaning of "difficult element" -- a triple Lutz, regardless of quality, is inherently more difficult to perform than a triple toe loop, a quad is more difficult than a triple. etc. -- that's true enough.

But then, too, it seems to be really, really hard to do a quad loop (at least only one or two men in the world can make a serious attempt at one), whereas quad Lutzes are becoming commonplace, even for 14-year old girls. I am always surprised anew that the first triple jump was not an "easy" toe or Salchow, but a "difficult" loop jump. Maybe for some reason it it wasn't so difficult for Dick Button back then.]
 
Last edited:
Top