Musicality in programs and scoring

So, some of you might know that I've been following FS for 4 years now and over those past couple of seasons I've watched various of programs. One thing I like the most in terms of choreography is the musicality of the programs like, for example, when a certain move compliments a certain accent from the music. It's just so satisfactory to see that the skater pays attention to that particular note. However, as we all know, ice is very slippery and mistakes happen unexpectedly, which often leads to a skater being out of synch with the music afterwards. Here comes my question - do you think that being out of synch should be strongly reflected on the components score than it is being currently? Because sometimes I get the feeling that judges give big points for the "planned" musicality but not really for the actual performance.





PS This is my first thread on the Edge and I would be grateful if we could keep a good and interesting discussion without getting into trouble.

I can't comment on technical aspects of skating & scoring, but I do remember an exhibition performance by Brian Orser to "I Get a Kick Out of You." Now, I well done Russian Split Jumps in general, but I felt he did a particularly well timed one to the this music! IMHO, it was VERY effective for the song.

One of my favorite examples of an element perfectly performed with musicality is Ashley Wagner's triple loop to Nicole Kidman singing "one day I'll fly away" in Ashley' Moulin Rouge program. Ashley perfectly portrays the longing, the passion, the sheer gorgeous emotional build-up suggested by the music, Nicole's voice, and the lyrics . Also, Ashley beautifully communicates the impulse and feeling of flying.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXnbxumEo0 the buildup to the 3-turns and loop starts at 3:01.

Great idea for a thread.

Great discussion topic!

I spent 36 years as a high school orchestra director, so my draw to figure skating many years ago was the integration of music with movement. At that time it was mostly classical music, but unfortunately for me, now there seems to be more of a trend away from that.

There are many skaters who have a definite connection to the music, and they really draw me into their programs. Then there are others who don't seem to be aware there is music playing. Program Component Scores (PCS) have two categories (Performance/Execution and Interpretation) that include this connection to music, but I rarely see this reflected in the scores.

Another area that has me scratching my head many times is the actual selection of music. There are so many wonderful choices of music available, but to me it seems that many of the pieces chosen have a similar sound, or that some pieces are used way too often. Finding the right piece of music requires a lot of research by the skater and their team, and to me it's obvious who is investing that time.

skylark said:

One of my favorite examples of an element perfectly performed with musicality is Ashley Wagner's triple loop to Nicole Kidman singing "one day I'll fly away" in Ashley' Moulin Rouge program. Ashley perfectly portrays the longing, the passion, the sheer gorgeous emotional build-up suggested by the music, Nicole's voice, and the lyrics . Also, Ashley beautifully communicates the impulse and feeling of flying.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXnbxumEo0 the buildup to the 3-turns and loop starts at 3:01.

Great idea for a thread.

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Yes, this is a great example for what I meant! So, hypothetically if Ashley had missed the musical accent leading also to missing other notes, would you still give her some high points for interpretation and performance. Especially in comparison to two competitions - one where she nailed it and another one where she missed it.

For me musicality is not necessarily perfectly timing jumps to the accents, because you can do it even you have no musicality at all; it is just necessary to count and remember Musicality is more in the little movements and using the entire body, leaving the audience with the feeling that the music somehow flows through you, as if you create the music with your movements. That's a rare and magical quality. I would give as an example Lipnitskaya's 2016 short program. The music is jazz, "Dead leaves", a bit generic, but the genius of Julia and Stephane Lambiel (the choreographer) perfectly creates the mood of autumn, falling leaves and takes you to a bar in Paris. At the end she is probably a bit off, because she finishes slightly late, but even that doesn't take away from the masterpiece. So, when we talk about musicality, I would give Julia 10 out 10 and measure everything else to her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxoe2hPXpg

Autumn Leaves said:

For me musicality is not necessarily perfectly timing jumps to the accents, because you can do it even you have no musicality at all; it is just necessary to count and remember Musicality is more in the little movements and using the entire body, leaving the audience with the feeling that the music somehow flows through you, as if you create the music with your movements. That's a rare and magical quality. I would give as an example Lipnitskaya's 2016 short program. The music is jazz, "Dead leaves", a bit generic, but the genius of Julia and Stephane Lambiel (the choreographer) perfectly creates the mood of autumn, falling leaves and takes you to a bar in Paris. At the end she is probably a bit off, because she finishes slightly late, but even that doesn't take away from the masterpiece. So, when we talk about musicality, I would give Julia 10 out 10 and measure everything else to her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxoe2hPXpg

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It really is a heartfelt performance. God I miss her one of a kind understanding of music.

Some musicians accel at reading music and playing it exactly as written and others write music and make it their own. Some can do both but still usually have a preference. Both have great merit but Yulia was the later with a very strange but easily recognizable method for understanding. She’s not the lead violin player...she’s a viola or cello. It’s why I relate to her. I was a musician my whole life both professionally and as a student. I only felt free when I could write my own songs or take liberties with already written music.

I think it’s interesting to note that she actual begins setting the mood/interpretation of this song when she first takes the ice. Her arm movements as she greets the crowd set are a mood.


I think Anastasia Tarakanova is the perfect mix of emotion and recital in regards to showing us musicality.

Sam-Skwantch said:

It really is a heartfelt performance. God I miss her one of a kind understanding of music.

I think it’s interesting to note that she actual begins setting the mood/interpretation of this song when she first takes the ice. Her arm movements as she greets the crowd set are a mood.

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You are right! I haven't noticed that before and I've watched it so many times.. She is truly amazing. A hand gesture, a head turn, or a look, and the scene is already there and we are mesmerised. Also, thanks for your perspective as a musician, it is very interesting and valuable.

Autumn Leaves said:

For me musicality is not necessarily perfectly timing jumps to the accents, because you can do it even you have no musicality at all; it is just necessary to count and remember

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This.
I never got that notion. Yes, it is 'satisfying' to watch when elements or choreo moves are done 'on' the music, but I don't generally care all that much for it tbh, and it's certainly not what I consider a sign of musicality. It's more a sign of a meticulously put-together and perfectly rehearsed program, which obviously also takes skill, but it's much more... mechanical.

To me musicality (in a dancer or a skater) means that they're conveying the style or mood of the music with the shapes that they create with their body and the execution of their movements (energetic, soft, acceleration, deceleration)... pretty much what would be considered phrasing when you're playing music on an instrument or singing.

Thanks for the interesting thread. :yes:

esteticlove said:

Here comes my question - do you think that being out of synch should be strongly reflected on the components score than it is being currently? Because sometimes I get the feeling that judges give big points for the "planned" musicality but not really for the actual performance.

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I would put it this way. I do believe that there is an "opportunity loss" in the scoring when the skater flubs the musical timing which otherwise would have brought wow-factor scores in presentation and interpretation. The skater may not be marked down a specific number of points, but he/she wont raise the roof and get that 9.5 along with a standing O.

It is hard to tell, though. Not only is reputation/expectation a factor, but just natural variation from event to event sometimes leaves me scratching my head. Why did this skater get a 8.75 for this sloppy program, when last week she was twice as good but still only got 8.75?

RoyThree said:

Great discussion topic!

I spent 36 years as a high school orchestra director, so my draw to figure skating many years ago was the integration of music with movement. At that time it was mostly classical music, but unfortunately for me, now there seems to be more of a trend away from that.

There are many skaters who have a definite connection to the music, and they really draw me into their programs. Then there are others who don't seem to be aware there is music playing. Program Component Scores (PCS) have two categories (Performance/Execution and Interpretation) that include this connection to music, but I rarely see this reflected in the scores.

Another area that has me scratching my head many times is the actual selection of music. There are so many wonderful choices of music available, but to me it seems that many of the pieces chosen have a similar sound, or that some pieces are used way too often. Finding the right piece of music requires a lot of research by the skater and their team, and to me it's obvious who is investing that time.

Click to expand...

Classical music has become somewhat of endangered species in FS
I applaud to skaters who still choose classical pieces - you dare to be different!!!

Tutto said:

Classical music has become somewhat of endangered species in FS

I applaud to skaters who still choose classical pieces - you dare to be different!!!

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I know, right? Once they stopped making Buggs Bunny cartoons, figure skating was the only opportunity most young people had to hear classical music. Whereas you can't escape Taylor Swift and Adriana Grande no matter how hard you try,

Don't get me wrong -- lovely singers both. :yes: Still, my skate-watching career will be complete when someone skates to the second movement of Kalinnikov's first symphony.

esteticlove said:

...which often leads to a skater being out of synch with the music afterwards. Here comes my question - do you think that being out of synch should be strongly reflected on the components score than it is being currently? Because sometimes I get the feeling that judges give big points for the "planned" musicality but not really for the actual performance.

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Yes, I do think the judges don't give proper attention in the scoring when that happens, I think that being out of synch affects the musicality of the performance, and the performance itself very negatively.

I think there's nothing wrong with "planned" musicality, as long as the skater connects to the music and it's in synch with it, they can tell a good story like Alina's Carmen for example; she was rarely out of synch, and she's a good story teller (would have been better if the choreography allowed her to hold her positions longer as she has really good lines but oh well), or Rika's Beautiful Storm which was beautifully choreographed and executed.

But of course it says a lot about an skater's artistry when they can connect so intrinsically with their program that the musicality comes naturally, rather than "planned". Few skaters can accomplish this, the only ones that come to mind are Lipniskaya, Hanyu, Miyahara, Asada, Takahashi, Uno and perhaps Fernández and Kim sometimes. Also, Medvedeva seems to be going that direction.

Mathman said:

I know, right? Once they stopped making Buggs Bunny cartoons, figure skating was the only opportunity most young people had to hear classical music. Whereas you can't escape Taylor Swift and Adriana Grande no matter how hard you try,

Don't get me wrong -- lovely singers both. :yes: Still, my skate-watching career will be complete when someone skates to the second movement of Kalinnikov's first symphony.

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What puzzling is that skaters seem to ignore signals from the judges - e.g. the rise of Sin/Kat this season (thank you Johann Sebastian!)

esteticlove said:

Yes, this is a great example for what I meant! So, hypothetically if Ashley had missed the musical accent leading also to missing other notes, would you still give her some high points for interpretation and performance. Especially in comparison to two competitions - one where she nailed it and another one where she missed it.

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I think that this is where musicality in movement and intent, from the inside out, becomes important. In Ashley's case, music is part of her, and in my opinion she's one of those for whom it seem innate and effortless. It's another case of a very talented performer making things look easy that are actually very difficult. It takes talent, and also years and years of practice to make musicality so integral, and such a priority, that it seems inborn (even when they have to focus and concentrate on the next jump, or whatever). She never loses the essence of her performance and music.

I did see her do that program once where the loop wasn't as perfectly on the music. But for me, it was still a performance full of musicality and the essence of the feelings she wanted to communicate.... the essence of flight. To answer your question, I don't think the judging system should deduct points in a case like that. Partly because things like expression, emotion and musical nuance don't really get their full due in IJS. But also because it's not just a matter of hitting something on the beat.

I love Sui and Han's SP from this last year (well, both programs really) precisely because of the way they express the music "full out" every time. The SP has lots of accents that they both take full advantage of and get precisely on the beat, but I don't think that means that they don't express the music as well as others for whom the performance is less about an element on the beat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L98YaHclCw

Just my two cents on the topic of musicality in skating. Being "in synch" and "on the beat" in the execution of choreography, jumps, and spins (unfortunately less common) is certainly one aspect of it, and an effective one for that. However, IMO what really distinguishes the artistry of one skater from that of another is the ability to interpret the phrasing of music, to visualize the patterns laid down by the composition, to decide whether a particular phrase of music calls for an evenly-paced movement or one with jagged accentuations, and to convey the mood in accordance with what the music speaks. Of course, a large part of this is dictated by the choreographer's (and music editor's) judgement, and given a decently-constructed program, it's up to the skater's interpretation to bring out the full nuances and emotional color of the piece.

One of the most astonishing interpreters of music I've seen in singles' skating is John Curry. The titular music in his exhibition program "Nocturne" is a slow, gentle, and rippling piece. John fills the "space" of the long phrases of this piece with his extended lines constantly unfolding at an even pace. Yet when the "ripples" come up, such as at 1:07 with the flute, he captures the dynamics in the music by adding a jump.
https://youtu.be/qt-X0DGHvfI

This level of music interpretation is rather rare among skaters (not to mention the not uncommon crime of many choreographers and music editors to randomly chop up music to make a program), and I don't feel the general audience or judges care that much about it either. Scoring seems to be more of a reflection of the judges' opinions about the overall placement of a skater's performance relative to their competitors than a stringent evaluation of their musicality. Rewarded in scores or not, good interpretation is always a treat for musically-inclined viewers to enjoy:luv17:

^ A beutifully-written post. Thank you.

I think the distinction would be between a virtuoso and an artist. For 99% of figure skaters, just being able to hit the right notes without any flubs is a wonderful achievement that will satisfy both the audience and the judges.

Maybe we are being too greedy if we expect a John Curry performance in what is, at bottom, a sports competition.

Agreed. John Curry really is my highest standard for music interpretation in figure skating (ice dance excluded), and I have no shame in owning my greediness I do expect to see some level of phrasing from skaters, at least those who are considered "artistic". That being said, I will also clap whenever someone manages to land their jump on a strong note lol