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Thread: 2019-20 Russian Men's figure skating

  1. #341
    GS Supporter ladyjane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    Yeah, Aliev was shamelessly robbed both in TES and PCS - all for the sake of pushing Brown to 2nd place. When quadless skater with several pops to boot is winning over skater with 4 clean rotated landed quads in both programs, who is also have great SS and performance - there is something inherently wrong with that
    I don't agree. Dima was fantastic in the Short, less so in the Free. Still great to watch, but definitely not shamelessy robbed compared to Brown. Brown was robbed in PCS compared to Nathan, but okay I suppose nobody minds that here. I was just pleased Dima did so well, he had two great skates but his short was the best - and he was second on that one. Brown may not have quads but his skating is exquisite. Dima's skating is quite close to that (really enjoyed watching him) but to say he was robbed, just isn't true. Sorry. I'm one of those people who think it is utterly wrong to get high PCS just because there are quads. This whole 'no quads thing' means nothing as far as PCS is concerned, or it shouldn't. By the way, I'm not American, Russian, Japanese or anything. I loved Dima's performances and am happy that he's back on the scene. And glad he got a medal which was well deserved. But he wasn't robbed of anything.

  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstoj View Post
    Despite insane politicking, Dima managed to get away from Skate America with a medal.

    Score was a complete joke, but the performance was pretty good aside two pops.

    2ltz
    quad toe
    quad toe - triple toe
    3flip

    1a x
    3ltz-3t x
    3lo-eu-3s x
    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    Yeah, Aliev was shamelessly robbed both in TES and PCS - all for the sake of pushing Brown to 2nd place. When quadless skater with several pops to boot is winning over skater with 4 clean rotated landed quads in both programs, who is also have great SS and performance - there is something inherently wrong with that
    I think he was underscored in the SP as well. I don't understand how he got lower PCS marks then Keegan Messing I can only think they were trying to set up an all North American podium but of course in the FS Messing had a meltdown and Aliev kept it together so it couldn't happen. And yes Jason Brown is one of the most over marked skaters of all time. The protocols say Dimitri's 3ltz-3t combo was an invalid element. Am I reading that right?

    He really should have won the silver here. Either way I'm glad he managed to skate decently and get a medal. Hopefully it helps his confidence and he builds on it for the next competition. Things definitely look better this season then they did last at least.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOTMAA View Post
    I think he was underscored in the SP as well. I don't understand how he got lower PCS marks then Keegan Messing I can only think they were trying to set up an all North American podium but of course in the FS Messing had a meltdown and Aliev kept it together so it couldn't happen. And yes Jason Brown is one of the most over marked skaters of all time. The protocols say Dimitri's 3ltz-3t combo was an invalid element. Am I reading that right?

    He really should have won the silver here. Either way I'm glad he managed to skate decently and get a medal. Hopefully it helps his confidence and he builds on it for the next competition. Things definitely look better this season then they did last at least.
    his 3T got invalidated because he already repeat 3Lz and 3T. He is planning to do 4Lz but he pop it and technical panel assigned that jump as 3Lz<< not 2Lz. If he do 3Lz+2T then he would be 2nd place. I hope he can make GPF

  4. #344
    On the Ice medoroa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatenewbie View Post
    his 3T got invalidated because he already repeat 3Lz and 3T. He is planning to do 4Lz but he pop it and technical panel assigned that jump as 3Lz<< not 2Lz. If he do 3Lz+2T then he would be 2nd place. I hope he can make GPF
    Am I insane?

    3Lz
    4T+3T
    4T
    3F
    1A
    3Lz+3T
    3Lo+1Eu+3S

    Repeated jumps:
    4T x 2
    3Lz x 2
    3T x 2

    I need this explained to me like I'm a three-year-old, although Aliev does sometimes do crazy zayaks like that one time he forgot to do an Axel-type jump at all.

    (Relatedly, the RD scores and Tennell's 3T being called as 2T is making me really frustrated with the tech panel this event.)

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by medoroa View Post
    Am I insane?

    3Lz
    4T+3T
    4T
    3F
    1A
    3Lz+3T
    3Lo+1Eu+3S

    Repeated jumps:
    4T x 2
    3Lz x 2
    3T x 2

    I need this explained to me like I'm a three-year-old, although Aliev does sometimes do crazy zayaks like that one time he forgot to do an Axel-type jump at all.

    (Relatedly, the RD scores and Tennell's 3T being called as 2T is making me really frustrated with the tech panel this event.)
    I think the original post you're quoting meant to say that he already repeated the 3Lz and the 4T, which is why the second 3T was an invalid jump. You can only repeat 2 triple/quad jumps in a FS (and only one of the repetitions is allowed to be a quad). Since Dima repeated three triple/quad jumps, the third jump he repeated (3T) was declared invalid and got no points for it.

  6. #346
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    I wonder if a 3Z+2A SEQ would score higher than 3Z+2T (say a very airy rippon-2T) for Dima in this skate.

  7. #347
    On the Ice medoroa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by champagnerain View Post
    I think the original post you're quoting meant to say that he already repeated the 3Lz and the 4T, which is why the second 3T was an invalid jump. You can only repeat 2 triple/quad jumps in a FS (and only one of the repetitions is allowed to be a quad). Since Dima repeated three triple/quad jumps, the third jump he repeated (3T) was declared invalid and got no points for it.
    Oh huh, somehow this went over my head.

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatenewbie View Post
    his 3T got invalidated because he already repeat 3Lz and 3T. He is planning to do 4Lz but he pop it and technical panel assigned that jump as 3Lz<< not 2Lz. If he do 3Lz+2T then he would be 2nd place. I hope he can make GPF
    He opens on the second revolution, how can that be considered a triple?

    https://youtu.be/PfoKc-vHwjA?t=57

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyjane View Post
    I don't agree. Dima was fantastic in the Short, less so in the Free. Still great to watch, but definitely not shamelessy robbed compared to Brown. Brown was robbed in PCS compared to Nathan, but okay I suppose nobody minds that here. I was just pleased Dima did so well, he had two great skates but his short was the best - and he was second on that one. Brown may not have quads but his skating is exquisite. Dima's skating is quite close to that (really enjoyed watching him) but to say he was robbed, just isn't true. Sorry. I'm one of those people who think it is utterly wrong to get high PCS just because there are quads. This whole 'no quads thing' means nothing as far as PCS is concerned, or it shouldn't. By the way, I'm not American, Russian, Japanese or anything. I loved Dima's performances and am happy that he's back on the scene. And glad he got a medal which was well deserved. But he wasn't robbed of anything.
    Nathan should get lower PCS not the other way around.

    Jason's PCS are fair, if you want even more than that i'd argue you'd have to show me those skills while ALSO doing quads and 3a from crazy entrances, not waiting 5 seconds to set a triple.

    and yes skating a program with quads and without makes a HUGE difference, let alone Jason Brown had mistakes in both programs in spite of lack of quads, which makes the result even more questionable.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstoj View Post
    He opens on the second revolution, how can that be considered a triple?

    https://youtu.be/PfoKc-vHwjA?t=57
    Because he landed forward, so he did 2.5 rotation and that counted as 3Lz<< if he pop it to 1.5 rotation then the TP would mark it as 2Lz<<

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatenewbie View Post
    Because he landed forward, so he did 2.5 rotation and that counted as 3Lz<< if he pop it to 1.5 rotation then the TP would mark it as 2Lz<<
    Exactly, anything over the .25 over-rotation mark is counted as a downgrade. So, the call was correct according to the rule book.

    Dima was not robbed. He popped two jumps and he failed to do jump math. He could have been second if he had just done another jump combination rather than tacking on another 3T.

  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by readernick View Post
    Exactly, anything over the .25 over-rotation mark is counted as a downgrade. So, the call was correct according to the rule book.

    Dima was not robbed. He popped two jumps and he failed to do jump math. He could have been second if he had just done another jump combination rather than tacking on another 3T.
    For me it wasn't just that, you still have to take into account that was a program with two quads, and all the combos done, vs beautiful yet quadless program from a skater who had a major mistake in his also quadless short program. The score in the SP also was lower by 5 points what she got few weeks before at Ondrej Nepela and in my opinion his PCS should be bigger.

    In my opinion they should have given to Dima anyway regardless of the Zayak rule, because it's not just that.

    I don't even care all that much, because they can twist it the way they want ("figure skating is subjective", "Jason's programs should get thousands points even with double jumps",...) in the moment it felt a little shady: not showing the tech box in real time, the long delays,...

    At the end of the day this was a very good showing for Aliev, let's build from that.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstoj View Post
    For me it wasn't just that, you still have to take into account that was a program with two quads, and all the combos done, vs beautiful yet quadless program from a skater who had a major mistake in his also quadless short program. The score in the SP also was lower by 5 points what she got few weeks before at Ondrej Nepela and in my opinion his PCS should be bigger.

    In my opinion they should have given to Dima anyway regardless of the Zayak rule, because it's not just that.

    I don't even care all that much, because they can twist it the way they want ("figure skating is subjective", "Jason's programs should get thousands points even with double jumps",...) in the moment it felt a little shady: not showing the tech box in real time, the long delays,...

    At the end of the day this was a very good showing for Aliev, let's build from that.
    I agree that Aliev did very well here compared to the way he skated last season. I, personally, found his LP a bit boring (at this event) because I don't think he has the stamina to complete it at full speed yet and it didn't look like he was getting any ice coverage. Thus, I think his PCS marks here were fair but I can certainly see him getting and deserving higher PCS marks in the future when his stamina has improved. He is a talented and beautiful skater when he is at his best.

    But, I think Jason outscoring Dima in the free shows the importance of non-jump elements. I mean quads don't always lead to wins because figure skating isn't just about jumps. In the end, Jason Brown had a higher BV than Dima because of Dima's jumped issues (mentioned above) and Dima's levels in his free skate. His spins are really weak (spins matter, they made the difference better Bradie and Kaori in the SP) compared with Jason Brown who deservedly gets +4/5 GOE on spins and always gets level 4s on step sequences/spins. Dima's non-jump elements need to improve. This is consistently one reason why Jason Brown outscores skaters with quads. They don't get their levels and they get deservedly low GOE on Steps and Spins. Dima is absolutely capable of outscoring Jason Brown but he can't pop, lose levels, and fail to do jump math.

    I believe he will do better next time.

  13. #353
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    The non-jumping elements are still hurting Dima, but I'm glad he managed to do a few decent-to-good competitions this year. Maybe his problems are starting to get solved and he'll become a top player in the game this season. As for his score in the FS, doing math equations during a program is certainly not the easiest thing. Hopefully he'll manage to get it done by the next GP.

  14. #354
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    Where will we see Aliev next, and what do you think are his chances at the Final?

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    Looks like it's Rostelecom Cup.

  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interspectator View Post
    Where will we see Aliev next, and what do you think are his chances at the Final?
    Looking at the field at Rostelecom cup, he can fight for the silver medal, if he keeps working hard as he is doing, even gold if Shoma isn't in the best shape (we don't know his situation now that he is without a stable coach), Aliev skates clean plus skating at home, and if they call Zhou's clear underrotations.

    GPF then depends on results of other skaters: there were seasons where silver and bronze were enough to qualify and others that weren't.

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollerblade View Post
    Looks like it's Rostelecom Cup.
    One underscore and other overscore ..

  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstoj View Post
    Looking at the field at Rostelecom cup, he can fight for the silver medal, if he keeps working hard as he is doing, even gold if Shoma isn't in the best shape (we don't know his situation now that he is without a stable coach), Aliev skates clean plus skating at home, and if they call Zhou's clear underrotations.

    GPF then depends on results of other skaters: there were seasons where silver and bronze were enough to qualify and others that weren't.
    Vincent is now a World bronze medalist so don't be shocked if the judges now decide his jumps are fully rotated and not under. He's certain to now be given the "benefit of doubt." It would really shock me if he wasn't judged more leniently

    A silver is possible although it certainly won't be easy. I just hope he gets proper backing from the federation since their "IT" boy Samarin will be there too

  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOTMAA View Post
    Vincent is now a World bronze medalist so don't be shocked if the judges now decide his jumps are fully rotated and not under. He's certain to now be given the "benefit of doubt." It would really shock me if he wasn't judged more leniently

    A silver is possible although it certainly won't be easy. I just hope he gets proper backing from the federation since their "IT" boy Samarin will be there too
    In his CS he got a lot of URs though and that was in his home country, US

  20. #360
    On the Ice medoroa's Avatar
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    I like Uno but he's evidently not in top form, so if Aliev skates clean while Uno mucks up, I can see Aliev winning TES. Total score, maybe not so much (but it is Rostelecom...), but Aliev's Nepela score is neck to neck with Uno's Finlandia score.

    Samarin is a dark horse. Sometimes he actually manages to land most of his jumps.

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