2019-20 Russian Men's figure skating

RemyRose said:

Gorshkov already said it's up to his coach so he has been selected. Buyanova said she will think about it b/c they were planning on JrW.

Now what does a junior nats title bring him in the grand scheme of things? What if he finishes 4th? This competition is a week and a half away. He's not even leaving Euros until Monday so it's a week away for him.

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If they are planning on JW doesn't he must go to Junior nats? Or because he's in the podium at senior nats he get a bye and already named to JW?

skatenewbie said:

If they are planning on JW doesn't he must go to Junior nats? Or because he's in the podium at senior nats he get a bye and already named to JW?

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He would get a bye and who would question it? If the Fed gave Pitkeev and Samarin a bye for their 7th and 9th places at Euros, why would the fed make Artur go with a silver?

Plus like I said, it's an awfully quick turn around from Euros and what happens if he finishes 4th? And the last time he competed his junior programs was over 3 months ago (his La Traviata over a year ago and it had a different layout).

It already seems a bit strange to me that he would do junior nationals, seems like such a downgrade after Euros silver.

But it's his team decision. I hope they make a wise choice and don't run this kid through any more competition with the potential of burning him out before Worlds. He has competed more than any other Russian junior outside of Yablokov. I think Ilya is at 9 as well.

RemyRose said:

Gorshkov already said it's up to his coach so he has been selected. Buyanova said she will think about it b/c they were planning on JrW.

Now what does a junior nats title bring him in the grand scheme of things? What if he finishes 4th? This competition is a week and a half away. He's not even leaving Euros until Monday so it's a week away for him.

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Prior to this event he literally said he's at the Europeans to take the opportunity despite the age because it was available for him, i see Worlds as no different. If he wants to go, he should.

I'm not expecting him at Junior Nationals this soon.

To me, Gorshkov didn't sound a definite in his proclamation. We'll have to wait and see if FFKKR sticks to the sporting principle or some coaches council decides differently on wether Danielyan is really Russia's number two male skater.

I hope and wish for Artur to be selected for Worlds, and obviously for him to do well and distinguish himself in Montreal, where the competition will be very much fiercer.

If Danielian wants to go (and his coach agrees) I see no way that anybody else is going to Worlds with Aliev. The question mark is whether they decide to do JWC instead of WC as I understood they were planning to before Danielian's huge success. I'd still wish he'd go for WC - the men's field (and figure skating itself) is unpredictable, this might not be a chance he will get every year.

Anni234 said:

If Danielian wants to go (and his coach agrees) I see no way that anybody else is going to Worlds with Aliev. The question mark is whether they decide to do JWC instead of WC as I understood they were planning to before Danielian's huge success. I'd still wish he'd go for WC - the men's field (and figure skating itself) is unpredictable, this might not be a change he will get every year.

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Agreed. Let's just hope the RusFed doesn't burden Aliev and Danielian with expectations, especially about earning 3 quotas and neither are held as new hopes because that seems to do more harm than good.

I hope both can quietly prepare for Worlds.

Fingers crossed there would be no pressure, but unfortunately it seems there always is... I am overjoyed that I will get a chance to see Aliev skate in Montreal (that’s right after Uno winning Japanese Nationals—I feel like walking on air, tbh).

if Danielian skates as well, that would be incredible. I loved his performance in JrW. But, if he wants a shot at the JrW title, well, that’s something he might otherwise miss if he does not attend this year. He does have all the makings of a long career... and knock on wood.

In a way, I think Junior Worlds would be a more high-stakes event for Danielian than senior Worlds. The junior men's field is stacked, with a lineup of serious contenders like Kagiyama, Sato, Mozalev and more, who are all capable of beating him (and each other). In fact, the field is so deep this year that I could easily imagine Danielian ending up in the lower half of the top 10 if he were to falter. Yet coming in as the European silver medallist, he would be expected to dominate and anything less than a podium finish would be considered a disappointment. (I personally think that Kagiyama and Sato will/should go 1-2 if everyone skates cleanly, but the Russian federation probably doesn't see it that way.) So the likelihood of success is not commensurate with the expectations that would be placed on him. Daniel Grassl would be in a very similar position if he decided to go to Junior Worlds.

At senior Worlds, by contrast, Danielian would be evaluated by his performance, not by his final placement, so all he'd need to do to keep the Russian federation happy is skate well.

All that said, senior Worlds is of course the bigger stage--the biggest stage there is, apart from the Olympics--so I'm sure he'd still be stressed out/taking it extremely seriously. But his performance/placement would be interpreted differently.

RemyRose said:

He would get a bye and who would question it? If the Fed gave Pitkeev and Samarin a bye for their 7th and 9th places at Euros, why would the fed make Artur go with a silver?

Plus like I said, it's an awfully quick turn around from Euros and what happens if he finishes 4th? And the last time he competed his junior programs was over 3 months ago (his La Traviata over a year ago and it had a different layout).

It already seems a bit strange to me that he would do junior nationals, seems like such a downgrade after Euros silver.

But it's his team decision. I hope they make a wise choice and don't run this kid through any more competition with the potential of burning him out before Worlds. He has competed more than any other Russian junior outside of Yablokov. I think Ilya is at 9 as well.

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The problem here seems to be more RF but not his coaching team. In this Interview Buyanova mentions that they would take a bye for RJN if they’d get one:
https://russian.rt.com/sport/articl...3_69ci5IwixDnOGUbVoabvgO2OmzpO1eN2ql1S4hACUIs

AFAIK in case of Samarin and Pitkeev they even knew beforehand that they don’t need to skate at RJN if they skate well at Euros. Ok, the time schedule was even tighter than as there was even less time between the end of men’s competition at Euros and start of RJN but then they didn’t have to skate the gala.

But I see why RF behaves this way - Adian and Samarin where the “chosen” Juniors and their expected next big things, while Artur is not and he is certainly disturbing RF plans to boost Samsonov, whose spot for JW would be much more in jeopardy if Artur gets a bye. And I think the risk of Artur placing only 4th or even lower at RJN is quite high considering he lost a lot of practice time at Euros and will not only be physically tired, but also mentally drained. Which then would also make it easy for RF to argue someone else should be sent to Senior Worlds. They obviously don’t like the idea of Artur competing there though he deservedly earned that spot, actually there should be no discussion about it. Insisting that Artur needs to skate at RJN might solve a lot of headaches for them. :sarcasm:

It would be unfortunate if Samsonov’s infatuation impacts the field negatively. Mozalev likely would have more cause to be exhausted and demoralized ahead of JrN

welll... juniors worlds isn't easy ... so if he goes and loose is bad ... in juniors anything less than the first place would be a faillure for him after the europeans ...

Who should go to seniors world? well dimitri ... he got gold ... and well ... i can't decide for the second:
- Samarin has more experience ... but I think russian senior men need to stop feeling that they are safe no matter the result .. so maybe stay home this time even if i think he is the better answer for get 2 or 3 places for next year

- Artur -->great job at nationals and europeans --> he deserves to go but i think maybe is to early for him ... maybe is to much pression and another junior men is lost ... but for some reason when he failled in the lutz he didn't get on a spiral ( symbol mark of every russian men ... one thing goes wrong and everything is lost) so maybe he can handle the pression ... no one is expecting more from him than maybe a 10 place at worlds so maybe this will help him

- So maybe I would send Makar.. that punish samarin and maybe that protects artur from the pression in his senior year

We will see soon enough what they would decide.

lariko said:

We will see soon enough what they would decide.

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I mean really. Why would anyone send Makar over Artur? But we will see. Artur earned it so he should go. There are enough Juniors competing for those 3 spots to Junior Worlds, they don't need Artur. Plus he already has a medal. Let him gain experience in Seniors.

RemyRose said:

I mean really. Why would anyone send Makar over Artur? But we will see. Artur earned it so he should go. There are enough Juniors competing for those 3 spots to Junior Worlds, they don't need Artur. Plus he already has a medal. Let him gain experience in Seniors.

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Agree, Arthur earned it all fair and square, and I think Makar needs time to focus on improving his tes.
He was doing very nice 4S combos and that 4Lo was looking gorgeous. If he focuses on getting those clean in his program, he’ll definitely be in contention next year.

Interesting times!
Where would it all go? I certainly hope to see Kolyada back on the team next year.
Fingers crossed for 3 spots for russian men.

Just saw an adorable interview with Daniil Samsonov on the Olympic channel.
His idol is Shoma Uno, did not know that

I’m usually on the protective side, but I too prefer Artur going to Senior Worlds. He has been to JW twice, he already won a medal, so the only goal for him could be winning gold which would add huge pressure. At Senior Worlds it’s like Euros, there is nothing to lose for him, it’s just about getting experience. It will be up to Dima to secure two spots.

However, in any case I don’t want to end things up in a way that totally exhausted Artur on demand of RF has to compete at RJN, places off the podium and then he will have to sit at home for the rest of the season. It would be like punishing him for skating so well in Graz, while the other skaters get more opportunities to build up their reputation. And I don’t see how Makar or Samarin deserve the spots for Worlds more than Artur. Apart from that it’s not like it would be a lesser risk to send one of them to Worlds.

But if it’s JW, let it be JW for Artur, just give him a bye to RJN, though the fight for the remaining two spots will be a blood bath. But apparently Artur is neither Russian Feds darling in Seniors nor in Juniors, so I have an awkward feeling they are just waiting for him to skate badly there as there is simply no rational reasoning of him skating at RJN when there have been quite a few exceptions in the past. Adding here the fact that Artur seems to have serious issues with his feet and should take some time off to cure this makes things even worse.

RemyRose said:

I mean really. Why would anyone send Makar over Artur? But we will see. Artur earned it so he should go. There are enough Juniors competing for those 3 spots to Junior Worlds, they don't need Artur. Plus he already has a medal. Let him gain experience in Seniors.

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I didn’t suggest that it makes sense to put Ignatov in the running unless one starts constructing odd presuppositions that he was secretly training all the while or has insider knowledge... and that’s all fiction. Based on publicly available data, Danielian and Samarin on the whole performed better than Ignatov, even though Samarin is on a downward trajectory. Either of them is a more rational choice than Ignatov this season. And I am saying it with all the love in the world for Ignatov.

The sooner they solve their advanced equation, the better the outcome at the Worlds would likely to be.

Also, whoever ends up going, I am going to cheer for them, no matter what score they are going to end up with.

Its not really nothing to lose situation for Artur if RusFed want 3 spots. In few past years, you need 240-245 to be #10 in Worlds, so Artur need to replicate what he did in Euros. Even then with #10 placement Aliev need to be #3 which is probable but he's not the most consistent. Samarin have bigger scoring potential and cand land on top 5 but when we thought he might be a bit more consistent he bombs in Euros....

lariko said:

I didn’t suggest that it makes sense to put Ignatov in the running unless one starts constructing odd presuppositions that he was secretly training all the while or has insider knowledge... and that’s all fiction. Based on publicly available data, Danielian and Samarin on the whole performed better than Ignatov, even though Samarin is on a downward trajectory. Either of them is a more rational choice than Ignatov this season. And I am saying it with all the love in the world for Ignatov.

The sooner they solve their advanced equation, the better the outcome at the Worlds would likely to be.

Also, whoever ends up going, I am going to cheer for them, no matter what score they are going to end up with.

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I know you didn't

skatenewbie said:

Its not really nothing to lose situation for Artur if RusFed want 3 spots. In few past years, you need 240-245 to be #10 in Worlds, so Artur need to replicate what he did in Euros. Even then with #10 placement Aliev need to be #3 which is probable but he's not the most consistent. Samarin have bigger scoring potential and cand land on top 5 but when we thought he might be a bit more consistent he bombs in Euros....

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I wouldn't put pressure on either Aliev, Danielian, whoever to bring back 3 spots at all. At least I wouldn't tell either of them the goal is for them to bring back 3. You might end up with 1. Samarin's performance was expected, he's been on a downward spiral.

Ah, thank you for saying it—I was reluctant. They are talented, lovely, memorable skaters, but placing That Bronze burden on them and considering non-podium finishes as failure is unfair.

In Gorshkov's reply regarding Artur's participation in Worlds, there did seem to be a bit of reluctance, which is understandable but not necessarily leads to better decision. Getting 3 quotas is possible, but it's not something that largely depends on themselves. Let's admit that at this point, such "reliable" skater does not exist in Russia (and 99% of other federations) that each time you set a task that's near his upper limit but he's unlikely to be crushed by the pressure. Personally I don't see anything wrong with following Euros results, both to give respect for selection rules/the Fed's own authority, and to avoid stressing out everybody potentially in the mix.

As a fan of Artur, I prefer he goes to the bigger stage at Worlds, but will be glad whether it's WC or WJC as long as he's exempted from whatever qualifying competitions. One thing I'd be a bit gutted about, though: if he gets a bye for WJC, one of Mozalev, Samsonov and Gumennik will have to be left out. All three are worthy competitors for WJC hoping to gain momentum from the concluding event of this junior season. It doesn't hurt to give opportunities to more promising youngsters and expand the selection pool for Worlds 2021 and Olympics 2022.

(A few words about the Samsonov hype that I've been feeling the urge to speak. Just a reminder that it roots from circumstances before this season. It seems to be dissolving with him doing no better than domestic junior rivals. Through the scoring at Senior Nationals, RusFed has conveyed the message, quietly but clearly, that he does not deserve that much favor yet. Before Senior Nats there were people complaining about upcoming huge boost for him and posting somewhat bitter predictions that he would get on the podium, as if by reinforcing the formed impression (or rather, to some extent, illusion) it must become true. What for? With some older juniors rising to the challenge and more than one younger supertalent likely to emerge, I don't see why RusFed must think Samsonov is the life buoy they have to cling onto in the Men's discipline. No need to panic way ahead of reality.)