2019-20 Japanese ladies' figure skating

cohen-esque · Aug 2, 2019

thexfireball said:
https://twitter.com/corszk1220/status/1157313785679339520?s=21

3A attempts from Kaori, Yuhana, Mako, Satoko and Wakaba at the JSF training camp (and 4S attempts from Yuna)

Eek. Every one of those jumps looked << worthy and with a lot of bad falls. Was there some sort of push at the training camp for the skaters to attempt these elements while they were there? I would expect at least *one* person to be close if they had been seriously training them beforehand; Japanese skaters generally don’t cut corners when they’re learning a jump.

medoroa · Aug 3, 2019

cohen-esque said:
Eek. Every one of those jumps looked << worthy and with a lot of bad falls. Was there some sort of push at the training camp for the skaters to attempt these elements while they were there? I would expect at least *one* person to be close if they had been seriously training them beforehand; Japanese skaters generally don’t cut corners when they’re learning a jump.

Most of them have only seriously been training 3A and quads since the end of last season, so I think it's rather unrealistic to assume they'd be further in their development. If it was that easy to attain 3A and quads, everyone would be landing them. I don't think there was a push to do them here, since a lot of them have been talking about needing 3A or a quad to have a change in the coming seasons, and talking about training them. Even Miyahara has been talking about the 3A for months. This video isn't "tried it for fun because the TV camera was there".

skatenewbie · Aug 3, 2019

I wonder why they just start to train now, well some of them are not but quite a few talk about it a lot more seriously since the end of last season. I guess the pressure from quadster coming to senior scene is real and they just think now that they need 3A/quad to win. Hopefully we can see few ladies nail it this season

cohen-esque · Aug 3, 2019

medoroa said:
Most of them have only seriously been training 3A and quads since the end of last season, so I think it's rather unrealistic to assume they'd be further in their development. If it was that easy to attain 3A and quads, everyone would be landing them. I don't think there was a push to do them here, since a lot of them have been talking about needing 3A or a quad to have a change in the coming seasons, and talking about training them. Even Miyahara has been talking about the 3A for months. This video isn't "tried it for fun because the TV camera was there".

Actually I’ve been hearing about several of these skaters supposedly training these elements on and off for at least two seasons, by now... and someone like Trusova can learn a fully rotated quad in practice within like one month’s time, so given all that I would expect at least one solidly “<“ attempt somewhere between all of these skaters if they were seriously training these elements. Plenty of skaters have landed 3A and quads (with varying amounts of rotation) before in practice while never coming close to putting them out on the ice in competition; it isn’t really comparable. This video just made me think that these aren’t elements that have been seriously trained. It reminds me of the final round at Aerial Challenge where it’s all just a bunch of Hail Maries. Maybe they’ve just barely started, as you said. But Yuhana, Mako, and Yuna, at least, would have had several months at this point even if they had only began last season, and I know that Yuna has been working on 3As and quads since at least the summer of 2017.

Also, I don’t think that they’re “trying for fun.” I meant, if this a JSF training camp, then I thought it could be a structured sort of challenge... I can imagine the JSF really wanting their women to get these difficult jumps so that they’re ready to go up against the upcoming quadsters.

yume · Aug 3, 2019

Rika's FS https://mobile.twitter.com/tsubakindy/status/1157545602802044928
I'm in love :love:

There is a lot of musics but Tom Dickson really knows how to make cuts. I like the result.
The choreo is interesting. Some recycled moves but overall it's fresh.

medoroa · Aug 3, 2019

cohen-esque said:
and someone like Trusova can learn a fully rotated quad in practice within like one month’s time, so given all that I would expect at least one solidly “<“ attempt somewhere between all of these skaters if they were seriously training these elements.

I don't think it's realistic or fair to compare a tiny 13 or 14 year old learning new jumps (when they are at the height of their basic athleticism) with people who have already entered the senior ranks attempting to learn new jumps. Even the men learn quads when they are young, go through their growth, and regain them. Just because Trusova did it doesn't mean 16+ women can do it. I'll reiterate: if they could, more would have done it already and these jumps would be commonplace.

In more general terms, women's 3A and quads are currently at an exploratory phrase where coaches and skaters alike are trying to figure out how to best achieve results. It's not like men and quads which has decades of well-researched documentation, which the current multiple quad jumpers can and have learned from.

And I know Yuna has been attempting them before, but this was before her injury and growth.

Lunalovesskating · Aug 3, 2019

yume said:
Rika's FS https://mobile.twitter.com/tsubakindy/status/1157545602802044928
I'm in love
There is a lot of musics but Tom Dickson really knows how to make cuts. I like the result.
The choreo is interesting. Some recycled moves but overall it's fresh.

I looooove it! I cannot wait too see it in it's full capacity in competition. It is sooo good. Tom Dickson and Rika are an amazing combo each season!

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 3, 2019

yume said:
Marin delivered visually clean SPs in GPs last season. Imo her main issue is that her URs get called everytime unlike some other skaters who get a pass most of the time. That's why that superb performance at Skate America for example got only 62. The crowd reaction shows that that score wasn't expected.
Last season she struggled more in her FS. Not a single visually clean performance. If she can at least not pop or fall her scores will go up. Even with 2-3 URs.

There is a 3A fever. I see attempts left and right. While most of attempts are not close. Maybe it help to have a good image in fed's eyes.

.
Wakaba always starts her season loke that. I remember in olympic season, she had similar performances at her two first local competitions but she was ready at Lombardia and skated cleanly in both programs.

Really? Visually clean?! I wonder if you have the same support for someone like Zhou or Nagasu who is "visually clean" but has had UR tendencies. Heck, Dai would possibly have another Olympic medal if "visually clean" were what the IJS cared about.

Marin has a UR issue. There is no reason for the judges to call her on it more than others - especially when she's the darling of the JSF even though her technical ability does not merit it, other than she's actually URing. She needs to get better in her technique. It's not just URs... she has a tendency to pop jumps too and lose focus.

yume · Aug 4, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Really? Visually clean?! I wonder if you have the same support for someone like Zhou or Nagasu who is "visually clean" but has had UR tendencies. Heck, Dai would possibly have another Olympic medal if "visually clean" were what the IJS cared about.

Marin has a UR issue. There is no reason for the judges to call her on it more than others - especially when she's the darling of the JSF even though her technical ability does not merit it, other than she's actually URing. She needs to get better in her technique. It's not just URs... she has a tendency to pop jumps too and lose focus.

sailormoon said:
Marin's SP is "Seven Nation Army" and Lori Nichol choreographed her new FP "La La Land". I thought she would repeat the last season's LP "Lovers", which was my favorite, while replacing "Seven Nation Army". The real issue is her short program. "Smile" for the 2016–2017 was perfect but she has been struggling since "Giving". Marin needs a perfect short program at the Cup of China to aim at a podium finish. To do that, she should only include jumps that she can land 100% without adding difficult elements.

Dear CanadianSkatersguy, i think it's clear that i was responding to those parts.
I was saying that imo Marin biggest difficulty is the LP not the SP, since she landed her jumps in GPs. In LP she doesn't only UR, she pops and she falls. That's why she gets very low scores. If she's visually clean in both programs she can score close to 200. Imo 65 and 135 are possible with some URs calls.
And you're entitled to think that there is no skaters who get away with UR calls most of time.

Imo she's not the darling of JSF. She's the darling of Japanese media, so the darling of Japanese fans. JSF never treated her graciously. In olympic season she got back-to-back GPs and Skate Canada AKA the cemetery. I never saw judges try to save her scores with high PCS (that she deserves imo with no visual mistakes), or high GOEs. Even at nats judges never gave her super high marks for good skates. Each time she got two GPs she earned at least one by being in SB 24 list. Now that she isn't in the list, JSF doesn't give her favors. She gets one GP. While accross seasons some skaters got 2 GPs though they were not in the SB list. Not saying that she deserves two spots,but if she was the darling, she would have got two spots as feds do everything to save their darlings.

medoroa · Aug 4, 2019

I thought Honda's SP was the biggest issue, too. It seemed to me like after skating a "visually clean" SP, she was quite shook up about the score, realizing her confidence in her SP performance was misplaced. (Whether she deserved those UR calls "less" than other skaters I won't bother getting into.) This seemed (to me) to affect her mentally going into her FS, and she fell apart because she doubted herself and couldn't attack the jumps. Every time I saw this happen I was actually afraid she'd give up and leave Raf, so I'm happy to see she's sticking with him.

I don't think she's the favorite of the JSF either, and it's a bit unfair to say so. If she were, she'd have received the NHK spot.

nussnacker · Aug 4, 2019

yume said:
Rika's FS https://mobile.twitter.com/tsubakindy/status/1157545602802044928
I'm in love
There is a lot of musics but Tom Dickson really knows how to make cuts. I like the result.
The choreo is interesting. Some recycled moves but overall it's fresh.

I must admit, I like it, but I don’t love it...
How do I say, it seems really flat? (compared to beautiful storm) The music seems flat, the choreo. And although the idea of international angel/goddess of religions or whatever overall sounds interesting, it’s a very abstract concept in general, it’s very unclear what she’s trying to portray to me personally and hard to capture the mood overall.
Beautiful storm had so much clarity to the concept and overall was such an amazing program (arguably one of the best ones last season), that in comparison this one seems a little of a let down. It’s not bad at all! but it’s not on the beautiful storm level either.
But it’s probably because it’s in its’ early stage, and will be reworked.

yume · Aug 4, 2019

nussnacker said:
I must admit, I like it, but I don’t love it...
How do I say, it seems really flat? The music seems flat, the choreo. And although the idea of international angel/goddess of religions or whatever overall sounds interesting, it’s a very abstract concept in general, it’s very unclear what she’s trying to portray to me personally and hard to capture the mood overall.
Beautiful storm had so much clarity to the concept and overall was such an amazing program (arguably one of the best ones last season), that in comparison this one seems a little of a let down. It’s not bad, but it’s not on the beautiful storm level either.
But it’s probably because it’s in it’s early stage, and will be reworked.

I agree that is a very abstract concept. I don't know how judges will react to this. Not too badly i hope :laugh:

The program needs more polishing and i think she will needs one or two competitions to fully grasp it.
But i'm already in love. Some people say it's disjoincted. I guess that's what i love. The music edit is great imo. Many musics, maybe too much but it works for me. The choreo has something "innovative". But maybe it could be too challenging for Rika. Because she has to deliver it with a massive jump layout.
Maybe it would have been the perfect program for Satoko.

yume · Aug 4, 2019

medoroa said:
I thought Honda's SP was the biggest issue, too. It seemed to me like after skating a "visually clean" SP, she was quite shook up about the score, realizing her confidence in her SP performance was misplaced. (Whether she deserved those UR calls "less" than other skaters I won't bother getting into.) This seemed (to me) to affect her mentally going into her FS, and she fell apart because she doubted herself and couldn't attack the jumps. Every time I saw this happen I was actually afraid she'd give up and leave Raf, so I'm happy to see she's sticking with him.

I don't think she's the favorite of the JSF either, and it's a bit unfair to say so. If she were, she'd have received the NHK spot.

Thats a interesting way to see things. Maybe. I guesss it's shocking to see low scores while thinking that we did great. Maybe it affected Tsurskaya for example the same way.
I hope she can become stronger mentally and deliver a "visually clean" LP after a bad SP like at 2017 Skate Canada.

medoroa · Aug 4, 2019

yume said:
Thats a interesting way to see things. Maybe. I guesss it's shocking to see low scores while thinking that we did great.

Compare her face after skating the program https://youtu.be/-qD_MWrQIu8?t=217
To her face when the scores came up https://youtu.be/-qD_MWrQIu8?t=433
You can even hear Raf say "If there are any problems, we can fix it," which I always interpreted to mean he saw the slowmo replay of her jump landings. I don't remember who it was (maybe Nobuo Sato referring to Mao Asada?), but I have heard coaches say that unexpected/unpredictable tech panel calls are mentally hard on skaters. But, of course, only Honda knows for sure.

Mawwerg · Aug 4, 2019

cohen-esque said:
Actually I’ve been hearing about several of these skaters supposedly training these elements on and off for at least two seasons, by now... and someone like Trusova can learn a fully rotated quad in practice within like one month’s time, so given all that I would expect at least one solidly “<“ attempt somewhere between all of these skaters if they were seriously training these elements. Plenty of skaters have landed 3A and quads (with varying amounts of rotation) before in practice while never coming close to putting them out on the ice in competition; it isn’t really comparable. This video just made me think that these aren’t elements that have been seriously trained. It reminds me of the final round at Aerial Challenge where it’s all just a bunch of Hail Maries. Maybe they’ve just barely started, as you said. But Yuhana, Mako, and Yuna, at least, would have had several months at this point even if they had only began last season, and I know that Yuna has been working on 3As and quads since at least the summer of 2017.

Also, I don’t think that they’re “trying for fun.” I meant, if this a JSF training camp, then I thought it could be a structured sort of challenge... I can imagine the JSF really wanting their women to get these difficult jumps so that they’re ready to go up against the upcoming quadsters.

Even for Sasha it took a lot of time to gain her first quad. Seems things start to going smoother after that.

nussnacker · Aug 4, 2019

medoroa said:
Compare her face after skating the program https://youtu.be/-qD_MWrQIu8?t=217
To her face when the scores came up https://youtu.be/-qD_MWrQIu8?t=433
You can even hear Raf say "If there are any problems, we can fix it," which I always interpreted to mean he saw the slowmo replay of her jump landings. I don't remember who it was (maybe Nobio Sato referring to Mao Asada?), but I have heard coaches say that unexpected/unpredictable tech panel calls are mentally hard on skaters. But, of course, only Honda knows for sure.

Marin and Polina looked the most shocked by scores that day... to be honest, I was shocked too, that both scored so low. I get that they had URs, but they still looked much stronger in the short than let’s say the host pick (Megan D. I think? I forgot). The general feel from their skating was a lot better than some skaters who scored higher.
That said, I’m glad that URs are a little less punished now, as I’ve said before in the rule update thread, I think UR punishments were an overkill last season.

yume · Aug 4, 2019

medoroa said:
Compare her face after skating the program https://youtu.be/-qD_MWrQIu8?t=217
To her face when the scores came up https://youtu.be/-qD_MWrQIu8?t=433
You can even hear Raf say "If there are any problems, we can fix it," which I always interpreted to mean he saw the slowmo replay of her jump landings. I don't remember who it was (maybe Nobio Sato referring to Mao Asada?), but I have heard coaches say that unexpected/unpredictable tech panel calls are mentally hard on skaters. But, of course, only Honda knows for sure.

I agree it was shocking. Her face was the nice version of Ashley at Sochi olympics. I just wonder if it affected her so hard mentally so she can't land her jumps in the free.
In juniors or even her 1st senior season Marin was more a free program skater than a short program skater. But at least most of the time when she was getting low scores in SP it was because she fell or popped or can't add a jump in a combo, not because of URs. That's difference. It must be hard for her to land jumps and still see low scores.

Ice Dance · Aug 4, 2019

I wasn't shocked about Marin's LP scores at SA at all. It was clear in practices that she'd grown & wasn't getting her jumps around. The surprise was really that she was able to get the ones in the SP around.

I was surprised about Polina's performance in the LP. I maybe shouldn't have been because I saw her CS event; but she was hitting jumps in practice. I think, however, that she must have been avoiding the jumps she was struggling with during the practices. I really don't think for either lady the mistakes were hard to see live in the competition.

Marin's performance abilities are beloved by the audience. That doesn't change just because of URs. I also think it is entirely plausible that Marin will adjust to her post-adolescent body and the technique Rafael has probably been working with her on in order to try to get that triple lutz combo to one day happen. Whether she will be competitive with the top of the senior field, I don't have a clue. There are some good signs for her. Her PCS mark is strong. While she has matured & that has clearly been an adjustment, she is still very petite & a typical skater build. She is working with someone who has had the ability to bring some of those Achilles Heel jumps to fruition with other athletes. On the negative side, she never had that triple lutz triple, and the field appears to be upping the technical ante substantially.

So we wait & watch. I think she's a lovely skater regardless.

yume · Aug 4, 2019

Ice Dance said:
I wasn't shocked about Marin's LP scores at SA at all. It was clear in practices that she'd grown & wasn't getting her jumps around. The surprise was really that she was able to get the ones in the SP around.

I was surprised about Polina's performance in the LP. I maybe shouldn't have been because I saw her CS event; but she was hitting jumps in practice. I think, however, that she must have been avoiding the jumps she was struggling with during the practices. I really don't think for either lady the mistakes were hard to see live in the competition.

Marin's performance abilities are beloved by the audience. That doesn't change just because of URs. I also think it is entirely plausible that Marin will adjust to her post-adolescent body and the technique Rafael has probably been working with her on in order to try to get that triple lutz combo to one day happen. Whether she will be competitive with the top of the senior field, I don't have a clue. There are some good signs for her. Her PCS mark is strong. While she has matured & that has clearly been an adjustment, she is still very petite & a typical skater build. She is working with someone who has had the ability to bring some of those Achilles Heel jumps to fruition with other athletes. On the negative side, she never had that triple lutz triple, and the field appears to be upping the technical ante substantially.

So we wait & watch. I think she's a lovely skater regardless.

I hope that she, like you say, will really adjust to her post-adolescent body. Marin's isu bio says her height is 1,62m. Tall for a Japanese. Among current skaters only Rika Hongo is taller i think. Marin had no chronic URs in juniors. But she got taller and bigger. In her 1st senior season she started to get URs.
Imo getting back her 3F-3T will be already great. A 3lz-3T isn't that necessary. Kaori gets giants scores with 3F-3T. And at some point i think she had that combo. Hamada wouldn't have let her attempt 3lz-3T at skate Canada if she had not landed it consistently in practice. I've even seen a 3lz-3lo in practice. But her 3F-3T has a better look.

Dreamer57 · Aug 4, 2019

yume said:
Rika's FS https://mobile.twitter.com/tsubakindy/status/1157545602802044928
I'm in love
There is a lot of musics but Tom Dickson really knows how to make cuts. I like the result.
The choreo is interesting. Some recycled moves but overall it's fresh.

YT videos from the Ice:

Marin Honda FS La La Land https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a2I2TVSpQY

Kaori Sakamoto SP No Roots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgLBWmQla5c

Miyu Honda EX Hand Clap https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEN8UGqSchA

(& Rika Kihira FS International Angel of Peace https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWBaLlws2UQ)

2019-20 Japanese ladies' figure skating

cohen-esque

medoroa

skatenewbie

cohen-esque

yume

🍉

medoroa

Lunalovesskating

Moonbear power 🐻

CanadianSkaterGuy

yume

🍉

medoroa

nussnacker

one and only

yume

🍉

yume

🍉

medoroa

Mawwerg

nussnacker

one and only

yume

🍉

Ice Dance

yume

🍉

Dreamer57

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