2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating | Page 211 | Golden Skate

2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
So true, in all walks of life. Many moons ago, delayed rotation was a positive. Dick Button used to point it out admiringly. I wish it still could be, because I think delayed rotations are beautiful. But in today's scoring system, it costs too many points if it causes underrotation. However, a little ornery part of me wonders if an ornery little part of Karen likes to do her jumps that way. I'm not a mind-reader, so I don't know, but the thought intrigues.

Her jumps are definitely spectacular when she gets them around. Her 2A is always fantastic. But you're right, it isn't really incentivized by the scoring system when smaller jumps can get the same amount of +GOE without the risk of being in the air longer than necessary.
 

Makemi

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
It isn’t rotational speed in Karen Chen’s situation but rather how quickly she starts her rotations from the point of take off (ie delayed rotation). In general, it is difficult to change how fast you rotate jumps, but beginning the rotation sooner can be learned, but hard to change over night. I’d honestly say, it is time to work with a jump specialist that is not part of the existing team to make this work. Sometimes it isn’t what is said but how it is said that makes something click that didn’t before

I recall that Karen did work with (or at least tried out) a jump specialist, Alex Ouriashev, back in the summer of 2018. Unfortunately any progress would have gotten derailed by her injury. Then she decided to go to Cornell. Would be interesting to see if she decides to go back to him or try someone else this summer.
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
It isn’t rotational speed in Karen Chen’s situation but rather how quickly she starts her rotations from the point of take off (ie delayed rotation). In general, it is difficult to change how fast you rotate jumps, but beginning the rotation sooner can be learned, but hard to change over night. I’d honestly say, it is time to work with a jump specialist that is not part of the existing team to make this work. Sometimes it isn’t what is said but how it is said that makes something click that didn’t before

i think it's both- they are tied together. it can be improved using certain exercises and working with a specialist. if she had a snappier takeoff, i don't see why she'd have any issues with URs at all. she absolutely has the air time.
 

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
i just wish Karen Chen will just prerotate some of her jumps a little earlier. Like Johnny weir said, she is like a diver who makes their turn when they are already in the water. She can easily do a quad lutz and a triple axle if she prerotates like the Russians. Also why is she always doing a flip when she gets ding on it. Don’t know why she just doesn’t change it to a toe or salchow and get positive GOE. her jumps are so massive. Everything about her skating is so good but she just doesn’t have the consistency and she doesn’t prerotate. She needs to start playing the figure skating game of prerotating if she wants to win.

Easily :coffee:
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Times sure have changed. Delayed jumps used to be so prized in the 1970s that Dorothy Hamill made them the opening and closing jumps of her long program.

Fast forward to 2020 and Karen Chen is criticized for having delayed jumps, because she "should" rotate her triples as fast as she can to get a quad. It's really too bad those kind of jumps aren't rewarded now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5ZzsUX8nM
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Times sure have changed. Delayed jumps used to be so prized in the 1970s that Dorothy Hamill made them the opening and closing jumps of her long program.

Fast forward to 2020 and Karen Chen is criticized for having delayed jumps, because she "should" rotate her triples as fast as she can to get a quad. It's really too bad those kind of jumps aren't rewarded now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5ZzsUX8nM

Karen's jumps are criticized because she has a persistent UR problem which she is dinged for all the time. her jumps are beautiful, big and airy, but she doesn't get around all the way. fact of the matter is if she wants a quad in order to be competitive with the top ladies, she HAS to rotate faster and get into rotation faster. Karen would be rewarded with higher GOE on her jumps if she did not UR.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Get-well wishes :ghug: to Gabbie Izzo, who had shoulder surgery.



Random FYI for anyone who would like to see fashion designer Batsheva Hay's collection with the models on ice in figure skates: Vogue has a whole slideshow.
Per the designer, "Figure skaters scouted at a regional competition at the mall."


(Came to my attention via my Instagram feed. At least one of the models has competed in Ladies at U.S. sectionals.)


ETA (on Feb 19):

One of the other models is a solo ice dancer, per USFS article today.

https://www.usfigureskating.org/news/article/skater-graces-pages-vogue
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Karen's jumps are criticized because she has a persistent UR problem which she is dinged for all the time. her jumps are beautiful, big and airy, but she doesn't get around all the way. fact of the matter is if she wants a quad in order to be competitive with the top ladies, she HAS to rotate faster and get into rotation faster. Karen would be rewarded with higher GOE on her jumps if she did not UR.

Isn't that the point of delayed jumps though, they don't get quite all around, they're big and airy? Obviously in today's figure skating, it's triples or bust, but in the olden days you could do a double axel or a delayed, big, single axel
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Isn't that the point of delayed jumps though, they don't get quite all around, they're big and airy?

They are supposed to land backward.

With a single or double jump, it's a lot easier for a big jumper to get in the full rotation after a delay than it is with triples or quads.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
They are supposed to land backward.

With a single or double jump, it's a lot easier for a big jumper to get in the full rotation after a delay than it is with triples or quads.

Well, yes ... otherwise delayed triples would've been a thing ...

I do remember that in the beginnings of the new point system, there was talk that skaters could get points by doing easier jumps with very good execution. I don't think that plan ever came to fruition. Shizuka Arakawa won without a 3-3, Laura Lepisto got a world bronze after a long program full of doubles, and Alissa Czisny won a national championship with only 3 triples. But it's not really the same. There aren't really "special" easier jumps that can get as much points as a normal hard jump.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Yeah.

A good double or triple can get more points than a bad triple or quad -- especially if the latter is so bad as to be downgraded, making the base values the same.

But a perfect single axel can never be as valuable as an adequate double axel let alone triple.

There would need to be some provision in the rules to encourage special variations of single jumps.

For now, if done toward the end of the program after all the jump slots are filled, they could be highlights that earn no TES points but contribute to the PCS. I think we have seen this occasionally with split-flips. Choreo sequence at the end of the FS would be a good place to include them.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Isn't that the point of delayed jumps though, they don't get quite all around, they're big and airy? Obviously in today's figure skating, it's triples or bust, but in the olden days you could do a double axel or a delayed, big, single axel

The skaters who I can think of who had big triples and delayed the start of rotation, like Ito and Harding, always got those jumps all the way around. When they didn't, they ended up on their rear ends.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Yeah.

A good double or triple can get more points than a bad triple or quad -- especially if the latter is so bad as to be downgraded, making the base values the same.

But a perfect single axel can never be as valuable as an adequate double axel let alone triple.

There would need to be some provision in the rules to encourage special variations of single jumps.

For now, if done toward the end of the program after all the jump slots are filled, they could be highlights that earn no TES points but contribute to the PCS. I think we have seen this occasionally with split-flips. Choreo sequence at the end of the FS would be a good place to include them.

I remember or rather I have seen lol Brian Orser do an amazing interpretive single axel in his routine. It was a thing of beauty. And unlike Dorothy it had beauty and amplitude, some speed and power. I realize it was a different era but Dorothy's skatingg did not have much oomph or pizazz. It lacked amplitude that we have seen with Gracie Gold when she was on top or Joannie Rochette or Kaetlyn Osmond.
 

b-man

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
I don't think it's an apples-to-apples comparison between Ashley and Mirai. Ashley was a Nationals podium contender every year between 2008 and 2018 based on relatively strong GP results. She earned at least one GP medal every season except 2008 when she had two 4th place finishes. Gracie also was a Nationals gold medal favorite, and international podium contender, for the four years of her peak abilities. Mirai was a lot more up-and-down, failing to win a GP medal several different seasons following her Nationals title.

This is a little incomplete and misleading. First, no doubt Wagner is the most successful US skater post Kwan/ Cohen. Further, Wagner, with Gold, dominated US skating from 2012 through 2016. That is five years of an 11 year career, a career which exactly overlaps Nagasu's career.

But the first 4 years, Wagner was far from dominant, generally finishing behind not only Nagasu in Nationals, Olympics, worlds, 4CC, etc, but behind Flatt and Czisny as well. In 2018 she had regressed, being behind Tennell, Nagasu, and Chen. So 5 years Wagner was dominant, and 5 years mostly behind Nagasu and others.

Since the discussion was about sponsorship, and sponsorship generally revolves around Olympics, we must look there. Nagasu edged Wagner at 2010 Nationals, went to Vancouver and finished a strong 4th behind Yuna, Mao, and a Canadian skater in Canada. Nagasu and Flatt got negligible sponsorships. In Boston Nationals, Nagasu finished ahead of Wagner again, but was replaced by a committee vote. Many believed Wagner should have replaced 1st yr senior Edmunds. Wagner and Gold each got sponsorships estimated at $500k+. At the 2018 San Jose Nationals, a resurgent Nagasu finished 2nd, Wagner 4th. Although the team was announced around Jan 7th, a full month before the team competition in Korea, all of Wagners sponsors, Bridgestone, Nike, Dick's, P&G, Samsung and Toyota all apparently stuck with a skater who wasn't even in the Olympics, to the tune of 6 figures plus. Nagasu, Tennell and Chen got negligible sponsorships. Since Nathan didn't get his anticipated medal, and one of our dance teams faltered, Nagasu's 8 triple program was certainly a highlite for the US, and it was replayed many times by NBC. It wasn't featured by sponsors, as they put all their eggs in the basket of a skater they knew would not be on the ice. So Wagner, who only qualified once by a committee decision, hit the jackpot twice. Nagasu got nothing in three Olympics, Flatt, Tennell and K. Chen also got negligible sponsors. Sponsors can, of course, spend their money as they see fit..
 

rollerblade

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
This just sounds like Ashley's agent is better than Mirai's agent... at getting contracts for their clients.
 
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