2019-20 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

evasorange · Oct 20, 2019

karne said:
Because when you're getting ninety-****ing-four PCS for skating jump to jump then having a fun ChSq anyway, why bother?

I can’t believe in 2019, we still have the “Nathan skates jump to jump” argument. It’s like the figure skating world equivalent of people who believe the earth is flat

it’s just simply not true and anyone paying attention can see that

1111bm · Oct 20, 2019

karne said:
Because when you're getting ninety-****ing-four PCS for skating jump to jump then having a fun ChSq anyway, why bother?

Someone sure sounds salty... :laugh:

That's a quite... let's call it provocative statement, and you surely knew what kind of a reaction this would get.

I get being annoyed with certain aspects of the scoring in FS and feeling that your favourite doesn't get the recognition, that you think he deserves. But taking it out on another skater with such a condescending, over-the-top sweeping statement, and diminishing the performance and skills of said skater, won't do anyone any good.

This is also the first time that I hear good posture will (or should) get you higher PCS lol, but I guess you never cease to learn. Quick, someone tell Yuzuru, he likes to slouch too, and should that 4Lz and 4A not work out, he could always work on a straighter back.

Speaking of bad posture, I think every skater has at least one kind of flaw or bad habit, that they probably won't ever be able to change completely. Yes, Nathan has a tendency to hunch too much, but he has other qualities that make up for that and that happen to be more important to me and many others, but this will be different for every person.

Jason f.i. to me has incredibly unattractive hand positions with his overly bent and splayed out fingers and the way his hands are bent at the wrist, but all of his admirers don't seem to be bothered by that. And I certainly don't think this is something his team needs to address so he can earn higher PCS (or for whatever reason some think Nathan's team should be concerned about his posture). :laugh:

(but of course they should, for my personal viewing pleasure

)

Tavi... · Oct 20, 2019

You know, I think maybe some of us here need to take a cue from Jason and Nathan.

When Meryl Davis interviewed Nathan earlier today, he complimented Jason. When she interviewed Jason a bit later, he said he thinks Nathan is the best skater in the world and he admires him tremendously.

It’s possible to disagree with judging, to prefer one skater to another, and even to offer constructive criticism without dissing one skater’s “hunched” posture or the other’s “incredibly unattractive hand positions,” “splayed fingers,” and his fans, okay?

There’s no need to tear a skater down who’s not your favorite. If you think their marks are undeserved, remember that they’re not marking themselves.

Last I checked, both of these guys got standing ovations last night. Whether we like one more than the other, we should realize we’re truly lucky to have both.

sdwyer52 · Oct 20, 2019

Jason has beautiful arm and hand movements.

sdwyer52 · Oct 20, 2019

This site is not supposed to be for unhappy people. Jason changed his coaches and it takes a long time to do things differently. Sounds like you never skated yourself.
Threat him with respect.

Casual · Oct 20, 2019

Full disclosure - I didn't want to see another Schindler's list, because I feel it doesn't belong in entertainment.

I like Jason, usually, but I did not enjoy this program. The music choice felt gimmicky, and the tech needs to improve. JMHO (Sorry!)

skatergurl7 · Oct 21, 2019

Casual said:
Full disclosure - I didn't want to see another Schindler's list, because I feel it doesn't belong in entertainment.

I like Jason, usually, but I did not enjoy this program. The music choice felt gimmicky, and the tech needs to improve. JMHO (Sorry!)

No one can top yulia’s, and Jason’s version of the music was just horrible. I really don’t like David Wilson’s choreo for Jason, Rohene and him seen like a match made it heaven though.

readernick · Oct 21, 2019

Interesting. I found Yulia's program cute but completely lacking in genuine emotion. I do think an argument for Satoko's program being superior could be made. As the other poster mentioned, she is willing to get rid of beauty for the sake of emotion. In some ways, Jason's program is too beautiful to show genuine emotion. However, this may change as the season progresses.

skatergurl7 · Oct 21, 2019

readernick said:
Interesting. I found Yulia's program cute but completely lacking in genuine emotion. I do think an argument for Satoko's program being superior could be made. As the other poster mentioned, she is willing to get rid of beauty for the sake of emotion. In some ways, Jason's program is too beautiful to show genuine emotion. However, this may change as the season progresses.

I think Yulia’s stone face was perfect for the program. Innocent but confident, really brought chills to the viewers. And she looked the part too right from the casual and child-like pony tail to the red dress. Jason’s is a little too..showy? For Schindlers list if that makes sense idk. I think Jason should stick to more modern or innovative pieces like his short programs or similar to Nathan’s music choices.

1111bm · Oct 21, 2019

readernick said:
I do think an argument for Satoko's program being superior could be made. As the other poster mentioned, she is willing to get rid of beauty for the sake of emotion. In some ways, Jason's program is too beautiful to show genuine emotion.

Oh, are you referring to my post over in the SA men's FS thread, or did another person say the same thing too?

The thing is, of course Jason is free to portray SL in this way, if this is his vision and it's what he wants to put out there, and obviously it's a beautifully composed program. But in terms of emotional impact and being more art than entertainment, I think a different style and approach would have been more effective.
But again, maybe that wasn't his intention and priority.

readernick · Oct 21, 2019

skatergurl7 said:
I think Yulia’s stone face was perfect for the program. Innocent but confident, really brought chills to the viewers. And she looked the part too right from the casual and child-like pony tail to the red dress. Jason’s is a little too..showy? For Schindlers list if that makes sense idk. I think Jason should stick to more modern or innovative pieces like his short programs or similar to Nathan’s music choices.

We're definitely never going to agree about Yulia. She was stoned faced because she was focusing on the technical elements and parts of that fs were trite. I found that program terribly lacking in taste. You disagree, ok.

I think Jason who recently returned from injury was focused on completing his technical elements and his emotion drifted in and out through the program. I don't think it is showy. Just not there yet.

fzztsimmons · Oct 21, 2019

Tavi... said:
You know, I think maybe some of us here need to take a cue from Jason and Nathan.

When Meryl Davis interviewed Nathan earlier today, he complimented Jason. When she interviewed Jason a bit later, he said he thinks Nathan is the best skater in the world and he admires him tremendously.

It’s possible to disagree with judging, to prefer one skater to another, and even to offer constructive criticism without dissing one skater’s “hunched” posture or the other’s “incredibly unattractive hand positions,” “splayed fingers,” and his fans, okay?

There’s no need to tear a skater down who’s not your favorite. If you think their marks are undeserved, remember that they’re not marking themselves.

Last I checked, both of these guys got standing ovations last night. Whether we like one more than the other, we should realize we’re truly lucky to have both.

this x100000

el henry · Oct 21, 2019

Jason has given interviews on why he chose Schindler’s List.
He always wanted to skate to SL. He doesn’t like “warhorses”, but he wanted SL. He wanted to wait until he was old enough and had the maturity to communicate the deep emotion and seriousness of the piece.

Given his Jewish heritage, it is a very meaningful piece to him.

For someone who has been skating full programs for only ten days prior to SA, I found the program breathtaking. I agree that Jason did not have full command yet, but even at this point, the program was deeply emotional for me.

When Jason has been able to skate full programs for more than ten days, I suspect it may improve.

karne · Oct 21, 2019

Perplexing. There's a discussion going on about great Schindler's Lists above me and people are mentioning Yulia and Satoko? I've seen a large variety of misspellings of Joshua before but those really take the cake.

Much as I already love Jason's, Joshua's is still the gold standard for me. Now there was a program worthy of 94 PCS. And he even did a quad in it to keep people happy. (By the way, he only got 84 PCS for the perfect 4CCs performance. Now there's a crime of scoring.)

moonvine · Oct 21, 2019

bonita said:
To me, it is partly costume, partly early season thing. His costume is quite similar to his SP Caravan costume last year early season, which made the hunching issue more prominent, but sort of went away after he went for that Vera Wang penguin costume. I also noticed his hunching problems early in the season, when he performed his Land of All in the early Ice Show outings in summer. It improved gradually late in the season, so I don’t quite fault on his team for not addressing it. I would prefer more attention should be on improving that.

He has stated that he and his mother went to a fabric store and got some fabric they thought world work and his mom made the costume and that he is aware it isn't the ultimate figure skating costume or some such. Personally I prefer it to the Vera Wang that was always riding up on him. I doubt he plans to keep it all season.

alexaa · Oct 21, 2019

moonvine said:
He has stated that he and his mother went to a fabric store and got some fabric they thought world work and his mom made the costume and that he is aware it isn't the ultimate figure skating costume or some such. Personally I prefer it to the Vera Wang that was always riding up on him. I doubt he plans to keep it all season.

The poster I was replying to was talking about SP when he has this shirt and vest combo. The bunching up issues strangely look worse than when he was wearing the costume at JO.

The tour bus inspired free skate costume has two side hooks to keep it from riding up. IIrc, similar hooks were added to the Vera Wang white smoke after the nationals to keep it riding up during performances. That is why we didn’t see anything similar to what happened during nats at either worlds or WTT.
See this footage from WTT
https://twitter.com/snk_tc/status/1116678829903208448?s=20

Don’t know if it is mom’s idea after the incident at Nats. She was with him at the time, and replaced the original orange traffic cone costume with the white smoke one.

Now knowing mom made the costume, I just couldn’t help admiring Nathan’s sense of humor when acknowledging the idea was inspired by the tour bus seat. He had this IG story about it right after JO, probably getting the picture or discussion from Jackie :laugh:

https://twitter.com/aboutNathan0505/status/1181271724127588353?s=20

Interspectator · Oct 21, 2019

I think that the story about the Nathan's costume makes it much more charming, and I've become fond of it because his mom made it. Some skaters love flashy costumes, some prefer more plain ones, I just want all the costumes to fit the skater well. They are top athletes, they deserve a well fitting costume-- which it boggles my mind that Vera Wang can't seem to manage.

1111bm · Oct 21, 2019

moonvine said:
He has stated that he and his mother went to a fabric store and got some fabric they thought world work and his mom made the costume and that he is aware it isn't the ultimate figure skating costume or some such. Personally I prefer it to the Vera Wang that was always riding up on him. I doubt he plans to keep it all season.

The costume hippomoomin and bonita were talking about is the one he currently uses in his SP, which is basically an off-the-rack shirt and vest, hence the bad fit and stiff fabric, which are eating up his neck.

The one that his mom made is the top of his FS costume, which, save for some creasing, doesn't bunch up on his neck, so not as problematic. Although it's a shame that it covers up the shape of his upper body/stomach area because of how loose it is in that area. And the way it hangs down during his camel spin, really ruins the overall shape of the camel, but other than that, the loose fit actually fits his casual and unconstrained skating style.

I'm surprised that you feel his Vera Wang costume was always riding up on him, since her designs for him have all been form-fitting like a full body condom err wet suit :laugh:

unless you're referring to his last season's FS costume? That one was just an emergency solution I believe, I don't think it was ever intended to be his actual costume, but more like a kind of sweatshirt for warm-up, so the fabric wasn't elastic or flowy enough and would indeed ride up whenever he raised his arms.

Speaking of costumes that are too loose, reading the current discussion about Jason's SL made me rewatch that program, and I still can't get over the strange fit of his pants, especially in the knee area. :slink:

The way the excess fabric stretches in the back of his knees makes his legs look like tent poles and the pants, accordingly, like a tarpaulin. It creates some really odd looking lines and shapes whenever he stretches his legs, particularly during his spiral or camel spin.

ETA:

Interspectator said:
I think that the story about the Nathan's costume makes it much more charming

I read people in the comments on Jackie's twitter saying that now they can't complain about the costume anymore, for momma Chen's sake, so cute!. :laugh:

ETA 2:

bonita said:
The tour bus inspired free skate costume

I love how this has become like an official title for it now. :laugh:

Tavi... · Oct 21, 2019

You know, everybody has different tastes and that’s fine. Jason is not everyone’s cup of tea and that’s fine. If you ultimately like Julia’s or Josh’s or Satoko’s or Skater X’s SL better than Jason’s, that’s fine too - but maybe give the guy a chance to develop before you start judging him?

Josh had his SL program for two years; by the time we saw it at 2015 4CCs, he’d already performed it at at least one Challenger, a couple of GPs, a couple of Nats, 2014 4CCs, and presumably at least one Champs Camp - and the program underwent changes during that time. By the time Julia’s iconic SL performance was televised at Sochi, she’d already performed it at Finlandia, two GPS, the GPF, Russian Nationals, and Euros, and probably at test skates as well. I’m guessing the same is true of most other SL performances that people are comparing Jason’s to.

As el henry mentioned, this was the very first public outing of Jason’s program. Due to the concussion, he didn’t even get a chance to show it at Champs Camp. He told Meryl during his interview that he was struggling with both programs at SA due to an excess of adrenaline. Despite that, he gave a SL performance that brought a lot of people to their feet.

When all is said and done, you may never like Jason that much or love the program - I personally never liked either Julia’s or Josh’s SL that much - but you might give the program a chance to develop before judging it.

ETA 1111bm, I don’t think Jason’s costume was a perfect fit, but your description of it - like your description of his hands - is pretty over the top. I don’t know if you dislike him that much or you’re just hyper critical - but the negativity is noticeable.

1111bm · Oct 21, 2019

Tavi... said:
ETA 1111bm, I don’t think Jason’s costume was a perfect fit, but your description of it - like your description of his hands - is pretty over the top. I don’t know if you dislike him that much or you’re just hyper critical - but the negativity is noticeable.

I honestly don't see how this was being offensive or over the top.

I mean, there's been people describing Nathan's posture as terrible and having a hunched back, his skating as being choppy and too stiff in the knees, the way he looks in his costumes has been compared to tour bus seats, traffic cones, a penguin and other types of black and white animals, lacking an arm, they've been criticised for not being flashy and costume-y enough = not making an effort... the list goes on and on.

But the moment someone dares to say an unflattering thing about darling Jason, it gets equated with spreading negativity.
(and before you object to my use of words again, yes, I'm being partly sarcastic here, but it's also true, because he is a darling)

I'm genuinely just trying to describe what I see or what image pops up in my mind.
You may object to the vivid imagery, but how is being reminded of a tent construction a sign of negativity? (but bus seat comparisons are fine I guess...)
Adjectives such as 'splayed out' or 'bent' are not some scathing insults, they're just descriptive of a certain shape, albeit not a flattering one for a skater.
Saying that something is 'incredibly unattractive to me' is not a a nice thing to say, obviously, but I made sure not to use derogatory words such as 'terrible' or 'ugly'.

(But yes, you're right in that I am hypercritical. But that applies to every skater, even Nathan, believe it or not.)

2019-20 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

evasorange

1111bm

Tavi...

sdwyer52

sdwyer52

Casual

skatergurl7

readernick

skatergurl7

1111bm

readernick

fzztsimmons

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

alexaa

Interspectator

1111bm

Tavi...

1111bm

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