2019-20 U.S. Men's Figure Skating | Page 43 | Golden Skate

2019-20 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

Olympic

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I think regarding Jason Brown, we can all breathe a little easier after his performances at GS in December, Nationals and 4CCs. That is 3 comps in a row where he has done really well. My hope is that he skates equally well at Worlds and I would be happy if he did a 4T w/ just a UR. That would be worth something. But, I ponder him just doing a 2A as the 2nd element of his LP because it would still be bigger score-wise than a popped or DG quad. Also, maybe he can repeat the Lutz and do a 'Tano (I think he is repeating the Flip and Axel?). That might boost him by another point. It might matter in a close competition. I am fine with him not attempting a quad in the SP. He can still score 93-97 in the SP without a quad, which likely puts him in the final group at Worlds.

Despite criticism, I am encouraged by Vincent Zhou. His performances at Nationals were well-paced and his 4S looks much better than when he was training full time last season. People point out his subpar performances at the US Intl. Classic in September, but he did much better at the JO later in October. I think there is a likelihood of his score really increasing by Worlds. I wonder if he will try to integrate another quad? If so, which one? I think the Lutz was his 2nd quad after the Sal in terms of reliability. Maybe we can see it by Worlds ....
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I am quite sure he has had other men before that could have done so had they had a massive USFS propaganda push behind them. Remember Auxier and his claim that Zhou and Chen were the only two worthwhile skaters....only a few weeks after a totally different skater (apparently not worthwhile according to Auxier) had to save their butts because one of the "worthwhile" skaters couldn't do the job he was supposedly a lock to do?

All the propaganda push behind Aaron would not have brought him to the World podium. He just didn't have the artistic capability (or rather, never showed it), and his jumping while consistent wasn't high GOE worthy (he just DID his jumps, never really performed them). His program choices were also questionable, and (IMO) he just didn't have star quality, even if he was a very nice, affable person off the ice (someone to root for, but you understood why he never was on top). He seemed to be a workhorse type skater going out there and doing his thing, but never sufficiently challenging himself artistically enough to get to the World podium. There was always something very "bro"/stiff about his movements that made it look awkward when he tried music choices that required more lyricism and expression. His best programs were ones like Tron which were high energy and made use of his explosiveness and strength, and didn't require finesse/extended lines. Maybe in the days of Joubert he would have excelled more but too many artistic skaters flooded the field after. The USFSA can help only so much -- but a skater themselves has to produce the goods. Which is why I say no amount of politicking would have ever brought Aaron on the World podium. It's not easy to train a 4Z/4F/4L either but if Max wanted to challenge for the podium (a la Jin/Zhou) then he had to have added these to his arsenal, or maxed out (no pun intended) every program - 2 quads in the SP and 4 quads in the LP (two salchows/two toes), to give himself a shot at the podium, because he wasn't making the artistic strides. The effort to do so was evident but the execution wasn't. So as much as you want to gripe that he wasn't given credit for trying, he still needs to go out there and do it. It's like Mao's lutz edge - she makes the effort to rework her technique and get it better, but if she doesn't do it - or make a tangible enough improvement - the judges aren't going to award the effort to improve.

Zhou on the other hand, clearly had UR issues but at Worlds 2019 cleaned them up sufficiently enough to get a bronze. This is AFTER the jump rotation rules got stricter too, mind you. I mean, the jumps are pretty much undeniably rotated (only the 4T and 3F were UR, but he was called on both and still won bronze by a whopping 11 points): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_DR5PTYrvU

Here he was even cleaner (and a Rippon 4Z!?!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5csCThqwc8
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Just pointing out that Alexei Bychenko finished 4th at the 2018 Worlds;).

This was a huge achievement for Bychenko and Israel... but it was still 14 points behind bronze.

Brown also came 4th at the 2017 Worlds... but it was about 29 points behind Ten (RIP) in 3rd.
 

NanaPat

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Canada
Just pointing out that Alexei Bychenko finished 4th at the 2018 Worlds;).

This was a huge achievement for Bychenko and Israel... but it was still 14 points behind bronze.

Brown also came 4th at the 2017 Worlds... but it was about 29 points behind Ten (RIP) in 3rd.

And Elvis Sojko won a lot of World Championships and other World and Olympic medals.

I've always felt that Aaron would have done better if he'd gone the Elvis / Bychenko route and embraced a more staccato/vigorous style of skating rather than trying to "do lyrical".

On the other hand, he skated for a country with a more crowded field and may have felt that there wasn't space / support from the federation for a different style. Or maybe he just didn't want to do that.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
And Elvis Sojko won a lot of World Championships and other World and Olympic medals.

I've always felt that Aaron would have done better if he'd gone the Elvis / Bychenko route and embraced a more staccato/vigorous style of skating rather than trying to "do lyrical".

On the other hand, he skated for a country with a more crowded field and may have felt that there wasn't space / support from the federation for a different style. Or maybe he just didn't want to do that.

Elvis did very well because he technically outjumped the competition (super consistent) and his quad set him apart. I wager he would have done poorly under IJS because his spins weren’t particularly remarkable and his quality of skating wasn’t great. His speed and projection was good and he was absolutely electric to watch... but his programs didn’t have many transitions, intricate choreo, and he also “bro”ed it up which meant that he didn’t really have nice lines or extension because he wanted to stick to a more masculine staccato style. Bonaly was also exciting to watch and a powerhouse, but she wouldn’t have done well under IJS either.
 

Seren

Wakabond Forever
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
I think regarding Jason Brown, we can all breathe a little easier after his performances at GS in December, Nationals and 4CCs. That is 3 comps in a row where he has done really well. My hope is that he skates equally well at Worlds and I would be happy if he did a 4T w/ just a UR. That would be worth something. But, I ponder him just doing a 2A as the 2nd element of his LP because it would still be bigger score-wise than a popped or DG quad. Also, maybe he can repeat the Lutz and do a 'Tano (I think he is repeating the Flip and Axel?). That might boost him by another point. It might matter in a close competition. I am fine with him not attempting a quad in the SP. He can still score 93-97 in the SP without a quad, which likely puts him in the final group at Worlds.

Despite criticism, I am encouraged by Vincent Zhou. His performances at Nationals were well-paced and his 4S looks much better than when he was training full time last season. People point out his subpar performances at the US Intl. Classic in September, but he did much better at the JO later in October. I think there is a likelihood of his score really increasing by Worlds. I wonder if he will try to integrate another quad? If so, which one? I think the Lutz was his 2nd quad after the Sal in terms of reliability. Maybe we can see it by Worlds ....

Unless he is injured, I don’t see Jason not going for the quad. At this point he really, really wants to get it. I think he’s probably the most frustrated of all about it. And reports of it in practice are trending positive. Additionally, he’s shown now that he can make a mistake and not let it hurt the rest of the program.

Vincent is a question mark for me. He could skate great or poorly and I wouldn’t be surprised either way. I like his freeskate, I hope his team doesn’t lose the performance by trying to add back too much tech too soon.
 

NanaPat

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Canada
Elvis did very well because he technically outjumped the competition (super consistent) and his quad set him apart. I wager he would have done poorly under IJS because his spins weren’t particularly remarkable and his quality of skating wasn’t great. His speed and projection was good and he was absolutely electric to watch... but his programs didn’t have many transitions, intricate choreo, and he also “bro”ed it up which meant that he didn’t really have nice lines or extension because he wanted to stick to a more masculine staccato style. Bonaly was also exciting to watch and a powerhouse, but she wouldn’t have done well under IJS either.

Maybe, maybe not. Elvis had some incredible footwork; he's still skating and he still does!

Skaters under 6.0 did what was needed/valued under that system; if they had skated under IJS, they may well have skated somewhat differently to do what is valued under the new system.

I still believe Elvis would have "bro'd it up" under any system, and it actually worked for him. He may have done better if he'd modified his style, but I think he probably would have done worse. He basically defied the skating establishment by doing the best version of him rather than a poor version of someone else.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Maybe, maybe not. Elvis had some incredible footwork; he's still skating and he still does!

Skaters under 6.0 did what was needed/valued under that system; if they had skated under IJS, they may well have skated somewhat differently to do what is valued under the new system.

I still believe Elvis would have "bro'd it up" under any system, and it actually worked for him. He may have done better if he'd modified his style, but I think he probably would have done worse. He basically defied the skating establishment by doing the best version of him rather than a poor version of someone else.

Agreed! I’m glad he was himself - although I didn’t appreciate his comments denigrating other skaters who weren’t macho (Joubert too). I get the sense he wouldn’t support Jason being in contention for a World medal no matter how superior his skating is from an artistic standpoint.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
I had a difficult time getting close to Elvis after being such a Kurt Browning fan. Never quite appreciated his kung fu type of skating and REALLY didn't appreciate his comments. But it takes all kinds and he had avid followers. And quite frankly it was a good time for Canadian figure skating to have Kurt and then Elvis. And then there was Jeff Buttle and Patrick Chan. Not so sure the current crop will rival those years. As for the US, I think we have alot to look forward to with Camden and the other youngsters who are starting to make their mark.
 

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Max had an unfortunate tendency to pop his jumps. He rarely rotated the triple toe on his quad combo, and the last two seasons, one of his weakest events was at Nationals. It's not like Adam or Jason was brilliant at U.S. Nationals in 2018. But the pressure got to Max in a more costly way.

None of them were competitive for the World podium. The next generation had to come up with the jumps. (And now, the scoring system has been rewritten, which benefits athletes like Jason, Rizzo, and Aymoz--though it remains to be seen whether any of them can play hardball with the multi-quad programs most likely to fight for the podium at Worlds when the entire field is training to be at their best).
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Isn't this the third or fourth season Jason has been working on the quad? A fully rotated quad is worth a triple jump still even factoring the-1 for fall and negative GOE. If he plays it safe he may never get that quad. I know he has beautiful programs and a fall doesn't help but this has been going on for years. He can do it.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
And Elvis Sojko won a lot of World Championships and other World and Olympic medals.

I've always felt that Aaron would have done better if he'd gone the Elvis / Bychenko route and embraced a more staccato/vigorous style of skating rather than trying to "do lyrical".

On the other hand, he skated for a country with a more crowded field and may have felt that there wasn't space / support from the federation for a different style. Or maybe he just didn't want to do that.

I wonders how Stoijko would have done under the new system. Even under the 6.0 system I am not so sure he deserved to be put down so much. ARtistically I did not like his programs you know he sold his p rogram. Candelero, Joubert won medals and I am not so sure I would say they were traditionally artistic. Both had charm and arguably sex appeal kind of like Javier. I know this is unpopular but I wonder if Elvis had been more physically attractive or charming to the public if he would have been knocked about his artistry. Candelero had charm but was a very messy skater. I will get attacked for saying this and Elvis is far from my fave skater but I don't think he was all that bad. And oddly enough his tech content at least jump wise is ahead of Jason over 20 years later.
 

StitchMonkey

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
I wonders how Stoijko would have done under the new system. Even under the 6.0 system I am not so sure he deserved to be put down so much. ARtistically I did not like his programs you know he sold his p rogram. Candelero, Joubert won medals and I am not so sure I would say they were traditionally artistic. Both had charm and arguably sex appeal kind of like Javier. I know this is unpopular but I wonder if Elvis had been more physically attractive or charming to the public if he would have been knocked about his artistry. Candelero had charm but was a very messy skater. I will get attacked for saying this and Elvis is far from my fave skater but I don't think he was all that bad. And oddly enough his tech content at least jump wise is ahead of Jason over 20 years later.

Strange i always found Elvis very attractive.

I think a lot it has to do with if he was raised in IJS. In which case I think he would have done very well. He was highly competitive. He knew his best best bet was jumps, so that is what he went for. Under IJS... he would be the little juvenile screaming "I WANT ALL LEVEL 4S!!!!!" He would not have settled for level 3s in steps and spins and I think from an early age would go for max points. Jason has long commented he is not naturally flexible. It was his competitive spirit with Josh Farris that inspired him to overcome that. I have no doubt if Elvis saw a quantifiable reward for importing his flexibility he would have done it. Same with everything else. If he could see and maybe even shall we say "math" the results. I think he would have thrived.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
And let Elvis being the one still favouring the 6.0 system. Because there was mystery and a lot of discussion about (un)fair judging...(I read International Figure Skating).
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Max had an unfortunate tendency to pop his jumps. He rarely rotated the triple toe on his quad combo, and the last two seasons, one of his weakest events was at Nationals. It's not like Adam or Jason was brilliant at U.S. Nationals in 2018. But the pressure got to Max in a more costly way.

None of them were competitive for the World podium. The next generation had to come up with the jumps. (And now, the scoring system has been rewritten, which benefits athletes like Jason, Rizzo, and Aymoz--though it remains to be seen whether any of them can play hardball with the multi-quad programs most likely to fight for the podium at Worlds when the entire field is training to be at their best).

Max was very inconsistent and that was his downfall. It is one thing to have quads, but you have to land them consistently. On the rare occasions that he skated clean or nearly clean, he did well, as when he won Skate America.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Emmanuel Savary show alert :):

Wed Feb 26, 1 pm
Rockefeller Center Rink
Ice Theatre of New York

https://instagram.com/p/B8w_y71AWod/


Though it's way too earlier to think about it. ....

USA
Chen 9 Liu 7 S-KNIERIM/KNIERIM 6 CHOCK/Evan BATES 8
Zhou 8 Tennell 9 CALALANG/JOHNSON 7 CHOCK/Evan BATES 8

Waaaaaaaaay too early.

Meanwhile, the OWG team event rules for 2014 and 2018 would not have allowed these choices for Team USA.

For each country, no more than two disciplines were allowed to have different entries in team SP/SD vs. team FS/FD.

(Never say never, but I am not expecting the rules to change for 2022 OWG.)
 
Top