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Thread: Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Tara accomplished the unique feat of winning the Grand Prix Finals twice while never winning even one individual event.
    Only because of some serious home cooking at 1997 Lalique

    EDIT: Looking back, that season Laetitia Hubert had two GP events. She finished first in one (beating Lipinski) and last in the other. Is that also a unique feat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott512 View Post
    This thread still going strong. Lots of good input.
    Yes, reverse psychology works more or less so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Michelle Kwan had a six-year span (1995-96 to 2000-01) where she finished first or second at every event she entered. Some 30 major competitions in all.
    Maybe it's unpopular opinion but still.. I think that so successful and long careers of old stars occurred not because they were so GOAT - but mostly due to two factors:
    1) tech level and competition level at the time was much weaker than now
    2) 6.0 judging system made single skating more akin to ice dance now - where reputation of a skater and his order in a competition played DECISIVE role in determinng who will be winner. It's no wonder that famous skaters were destined to be on a podiums until they were ready to retire.

    In other words - in a modern fs reality it's thousand times more difficult to be GOAT that in old times. So, requiring from new stars the same level of achievements is rather.. unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by TallyT View Post
    Ummm, given that people quite reasonably want Alina to show more than 2 years as senior before calling her GOAT, it is just a little premature to crown someone who has yet to step on the senior rink??? And as for as popularity, does anyone outside hard core skating fans and/or Russia have the faintest idea who she is?
    Of course. MAJORITY of nonrussian casual skating fans knows who Trusova is I mean - do you seriously think that anyone who is INTERESTED in modern figure skating and follow even just couple competitions per year - never heard about progenitor of ladies quad revolution influencing all metagame last two seasons? It's just impossible. Those who are - they are not only hardcore fans - they are not fs fans at all. Maybe they likes some fs performance as a show. But that's it - it's the level of casual bystander - not a fan. Such trivial knowledge can be anything but hardcore

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    Maybe it's unpopular opinion but still.. I think that so successful and long careers of old stars occurred not because they were so GOAT - but mostly due to two factors:
    1) tech level and competition level at the time was much weaker than now
    2) 6.0 judging system made single skating more akin to ice dance now - where reputation of a skater and his order in a competition played DECISIVE role in determinng who will be winner. It's no wonder that famous skaters were destined to be on a podiums until they were ready to retire.

    In other words - in a modern fs reality it's thousand times more difficult to be GOAT that in old times. So, requiring from new stars the same level of achievements is rather.. unreasonable.:
    Difficult but not unachievable. If you look at the men side, when Yuzu became senior, one can win a competition with zero quads in their program (Evan at 2010 Olympics). 9 years later, 6 quads across two programs is the minimum to be a contender for the podium. So a period of unprecedented leap in technical difficulty in men, yet for the last 7 years, Hanyu won silver or gold (and more gold than silver) at every big 4 competitions he entered except one where he was heavily injured. And on average had 2 WRs per year, meaning he constantly upped his tech.

    Of course, you may argue men is different to women, but statistically more Women junior champion go on to win major senior titles than Men junior champions, which means the puberty monster is just as cruel to men. I won't deny Yuzu is blessed with the forever skinny body type that makes it easier to survive puberty. But there is the possibility of a women with such body too. Tursy comes to mind, which makes me wonder, if she had continued to be with Eteri form the start, what her career would look like now.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    Of course. MAJORITY of nonrussian casual skating fans knows who Trusova is I mean - do you seriously think that anyone who is INTERESTED in modern figure skating and follow even just couple competitions per year - never heard about progenitor of ladies quad revolution influencing all metagame last two seasons? It's just impossible. Those who are - they are not only hardcore fans - they are not fs fans at all. Maybe they likes some fs performance as a show. But that's it - it's the level of casual bystander - not a fan. Such trivial knowledge can be anything but hardcore
    As I said, hard-core skating fan or Russian. Plushy, Yuzu, Yuna, probably even now Michelle and Torvill and Dean (and Tonya for all the wrong reasons) are known to many people who are casually or once-every-four-years interested. Plushy did a stint at Eurovision which is still remembered and reshown , Yuzu got footage in the Washington Post and New Yorker and is still the Olympic Channel's favourite topic on Twitter, Yuna is... Yuna, the Queen.

    Will Trusova get to be a world-wide phenomenon? Maybe. But the ice, the collective memory and fame itself are slippery (remember Yulia Lipnitskaya) so I do think calling her that now is waaaayyy too early. But I shouldn't be surprised if for one of the new girls. we get a repeat of Kurt Browning's 2011 words on Yuzu... "A superstar is born." It may very well be her.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    2) 6.0 judging system made single skating more akin to ice dance now - where reputation of a skater and his order in a competition played DECISIVE role in determinng who will be winner. It's no wonder that famous skaters were destined to be on a podiums until they were ready to retire.

    In other words - in a modern fs reality it's thousand times more difficult to be GOAT that in old times. So, requiring from new stars the same level of achievements is rather.. unreasonable.
    Thats kind of a true statement. In 6.0 system half of a mark was decided by personal impression, and it is in human nature that impression of well-known skaters and skaters you understand better will be automaticaly better (and that skater will automaticaly get higher second mark as a result). If Michelle Kwan and other skaters at that time were judged in todays system i'm sure it will be much more shiftings in their placements throughout the competitions. So yes, you can say that was much easier to keep your 'predetermined placement' back then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TallyT View Post
    As I said, hard-core skating fan
    It seems we have different understanding who is hardcore fan and just a fan.
    once-every-four-years interested
    It can't be even a casual fan One who is watching something only at Oly - is as much fan as a housewife clicking tv programs while having cooking dinner to skip some boring ads during her favorite tv show - and deciding to spend that time to watch some sport program on a whim, just couple of minutes. If that level of interest you consider enough as being a fan - well, then you have too low standarts.
    In pretty much all other kinds of sport being a fan usually means much more. Why only fs is so downplayed by its own fans that being only random onlooker is considered enough? Figure skating deserves more respect IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Thats kind of a true statement. In 6.0 system half of a mark was decided by personal impression, and it is in human nature that impression of well-known skaters and skaters you understand better will be automaticaly better (and that skater will automaticaly get higher second mark as a result). If Michelle Kwan and other skaters at that time were judged in todays system i'm sure it will be much more shiftings in their placements.
    Maybe not. If Michelle et al were skating now, they would have grown up and been trained in the current climate, and we have no way of telling what they could have scored...

    The current crop of up and comers may have shorter careers, that is true, and higher technical achievements, that is also true. But in a way that makes a career of at least a few more than 2 years even more vital, since otherwise there will be a new GOAT every 18 months or so... they have to stand out from the previous champion, and the next, and the next. These days, the turnover being what it is (and the turnover meaning that they simply aren't going to have time to develop their superstardom) longevity may end up being the ONLY thing that makes you unique.

    Alternately, the technical levels may plateau, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    It seems we have different understanding who is hardcore fan and just a fan.

    It can't be even a casual fan One who is watching something only at Oly - is as much fan as a housewife clicking tv programs while having cooking dinner to skip some boring ads during her favorite tv show - and deciding to spend that time to watch some sport program on a whim, just couple of minutes. If that level of interest you consider enough as being a fan - well, then you have too low standarts.
    In pretty much all other kinds of sport being a fan usually means much more. Why only fs is so downplayed by its own fans that being only random onlooker is considered enough? Figure skating deserves more respect IMO.
    Casual Once every Olympics fans number millions, and some of them become more serious fans (witness the mens field last year it brought a LOT of extra interest worldwide and not just the winners). Like over here, the entire country watches one horse race a year, and that's what makes the winner of that race THE champion for that year. There's a reason why the skaters themselves see the Olympics as the pinnacle, because they are aiming to be the very best in the world... in front of the world.

    The point I am making is that if you want to claim Trusova is as famous right now as Yuna or Yuzu, you can't just limit to people you or I or anyone else considers fannish enough (and if you did.... both of them have her over a barrel. Just a few days ago, Yuzu did a talk for one of his sponsors. 320K people logged in to one Chinese Weibo account to listen to him talk - not skate, just talk. And that was one of many accounts).

    Me, i think if she does even half as well as some folk expect her to, she will become a superstar. But for goodness' sake, let her get even one seniors' gold on the table first! Talk about asking for karmic Nemesis...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TallyT View Post
    But in a way that makes a career of at least a few more than 2 years even more vital, since otherwise there will be a new GOAT every 18 months or so... .
    If the newbies see farther than their predecessors it is because they have stood on the shoulders of giants.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallyT View Post
    Maybe not. If Michelle et al were skating now, they would have grown up and been trained in the current climate, and we have no way of telling what they could have scored....
    They were actually being scored by the new system and their scores were not high at all by todays standars. But if they were growing up in todays system, those scores would probably be better, i agree. But what i was saying has a different conotation, which is that it was easier to stay on top in 6.0 system, when you have already climbed there. Which means that most known todays skaters (as Zagitova) would probably have more chances for higher number of consecutive wins if competed back in the days (based on the philosophy of 6.0 system i already explained)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    They were actually being scored by the new system and their scores were not high at all by todays standars.
    Michelle Kwan skated only once under the CoP., 2005 worlds. She got 175 and finished fourth. (Breaking her streak of 9 consecutive world podiums.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Michelle Kwan skated only once under the CoP., 2005 worlds. She got 175 and finished fourth. (Breaking her streak of 9 consecutive world podiums.)
    That was my point exactly. She would surely stay in top 3 if she was judged in 6.0 system. Not just because she is a 6.0 skater, but because 6.0 system by its nature didnt allowed that much of a shifting between skaters 'predetermined' placements. And you can do statistic analize to see how much of different skaters were on the podium in 6.0 system compared to the new one, to see how 6.0 was more rigid and easier for top skaters to stay on top (which doesn't mean those skaters didnt deserve to be in the top of course)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finley View Post
    In my heart she is, and I think she has gone a long way (in a very short time) toward staking that claim. She has skated some of the most amazingly technically difficult programs and delivered them cleanly in the moments when it mattered the most.

    But I also hope that her best skating days are ahead of her. I fervently hope that I get to see her become the best skater she can be, not just technically, but as an artist. I want to see what qualities she has that only maturity can bring.

    She will be remembered for many things and ultimately I hope and pray that one of the things will be the longevity of her career.

    Thank you so much for having the courage to start this thread. You have my undying gratitude. Getting out now before the dumpster fire starts!
    Thank you for that post. Especially about Alina's difficult programs.

    But it's no dumpster fire here this has been a very interesting topic. I hope you come back and enjoy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Michelle Kwan skated only once under the CoP., 2005 worlds. She got 175 and finished fourth. (Breaking her streak of 9 consecutive world podiums.)
    Michelle is undoubtedly one of the greats and 9 straight podiums at worlds proves that. and she was facing quality competition to say the least for most of those years if not all of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lusk8 View Post
    There are several measures to a champion. And also to being called the greatest ever.

    Yuzuru Hanyu, undoubtedly one if the greatest figure skaters ever and worthy to be called GOAT, said something to this effect "to be called a true champion you need an Olympic Medal'. I can make the case for Nathan Chen being a GOAT, and he doesn't yet have his Olympic Medal, but he has achieved so much and has moved the sport forward, just like Yuzuru does.

    Alina is only the second skater in modern history, the first being Kim Yuna, another GOAT, to collect all the Grand Slam titles of Figure Skating. This is no easy feat, many great skaters have skated before Alina (and after Yuna) and have not managed to achieve that, so this is a gigantic accomplishment.

    Alina pushed the sport forward by being the first, and only because that door is now closed, female to do a fully backloaded program. That's a feat of endurance, skill and talent. She has a grace, a serenity, a performance quality and amazing figure skating skills, at a level that is far beyond her young years.

    She will forever, well in the future, be in the history books, and she is one of the greatest figure skaters of all time. A title granted to her by her talent and by her achievements.

    At the same time Alina is only 17 years old, to me she is all kinds of amazing to watch right now and the only show in town for me, but I would be naive if I said she cannot get any better. Of course she can. Yuzuru and Nathan at her age where pretty awesome and as their careers progressed they got even better. People improve on a curve, through experience and polishment. Sure there are some trade offs: like stamina and physical strength ceding more space to grace, refined movements and better performance projection.

    Alina will continue to skate for many years, I hope, and as she does she will gain new skills, improve on what she has, fix some minor kinks, and get even better. Since she is already pretty awesome to me her "even better" will be a marvel to see. She will reach her full potential and develop her talents to the max and when she does this she will be a GOAT.
    Great post what's great points. To win the Grand slam as a senior by age 16 and also to win the top major titles as a junior is incredible. The exciting thing is there is more to come if she can stay healthy. It will be especially interesting to see how Alins handles last year with all the talent out there and after winning all the major titles as a Junior and senior. I don't think she's the complacent type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yume View Post
    Yes, reverse psychology works more or less so far.
    I've used reverse psychology for decades! And it actually works sometimes. Lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    That was my point exactly. She would surely stay in top 3 if she was judged in 6.0 system. ... And you can do statistic analize to see how much of different skaters were on the podium in 6.0 system compared to the new one, to see how 6.0 was more rigid and easier for top skaters to stay on top
    It makes sense.

    Still, it would indeed be interesting to do a statistical analysis. For instance, in the 6.0 era 1991 to 2004, (after the abolition of figures and before the IJS came into service) there has been a repeat world champion only twice: Kristi Yamaguchi in 1991 and 1992 and Michelle Kwan in 2000 and 2001. Yes, there are some familiar names on the poduma several times (Surya Bonaly won three consecutive silvers).

    But in the IJS era we have this run of world champions: Ando, Asada, Kim, Asada, Ando, (Kostner), Kim, Asada from 2007 to 2014, besides two in a row plus a bronze from Medvedeva.

    It is not clear from a glance how the numbers all work out, comparing the two eras.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-26-2019 at 10:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    That was my point exactly. She would surely stay in top 3 if she was judged in 6.0 system. Not just because she is a 6.0 skater, but because 6.0 system by its nature didnt allowed that much of a shifting between skaters 'predetermined' placements. And you can do statistic analize to see how much of different skaters were on the podium in 6.0 system compared to the new one, to see how 6.0 was more rigid and easier for top skaters to stay on top (which doesn't mean those skaters didnt deserve to be in the top of course)
    I think you make some valid points, but Michelle is probably a bad example to illustrate them. She regularly churned out 7 triple LPs so, against her peers at that time, she'd probably win about as much as she did by accruing points on cleanly executed jumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I think you make some valid points, but Michelle is probably a bad example to illustrate them. She regularly churned out 7 triple LPs so, against her peers at that time, she'd probably win about as much as she did by accruing points on cleanly executed jumps.
    I was using Michelle Kwan's name because to me she was the 'GOAT' of that time, but my reference was about the whole decade and different judging system which was in use while she was skating. To compare, from 1991 to 2004 (6.0 system) 19 different ladies won a world medal, from 2006 to 2019 (COP system) that number is 24. (You can use number of different skaters competed at Worlds also as a reference to see how sport is more 'crowded' these days). It is not that big of a difference but it is still a difference which ilustrate how is (slightly) harder to stay on top in todays system of judging. (In some of the other disciplines as Ice Dance that discrepance is even biger).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    I was using Michelle Kwan's name because to me she was the GOAT of that time, but my reference was about the whole decade and different judging system which was in use while she was skating. To compare, from 1991 to 2004 (6.0 system) 19 different ladies won a world medal, from 2006 to 2019 (COP system) that number is 24. (You can use number of skaters competed at Worlds also as a reference to see how sport is more 'crowded' these days). It is not that big of a difference but it is still a difference which ilustrate how is (slightly) harder to stay on top in todays system of judging. In some of the other discipline that discrepance is even biger.
    Another number we might look at is consecutive podium appearances. Setting aside Kwan's remarkable streak of 9, here are the skaters who have two or more in a row. (I hope I didn't miss anyone. )

    6.0

    Yamaguchi 2
    Kerrigan 2
    Chen Lu 2
    Bonaly 3
    Butyrskaya 3
    Slutskaya 3
    Suguri 2

    IJS

    Cohen 3 (1 was under 6.0, the next 2 under IJS)
    Asada 2
    Kim 4
    Kostner 4
    Osmond 2
    Medvedeva 2

    (Ando had 3 podium finishes, but not consecutive)

    Alina will probably join that distinguished group next year.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-27-2019 at 07:00 AM.

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