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Thread: Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

  1. #201
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    Totally disagree that 6.0 was reputation-based. If there was a problem with the system, it was cheating judges (some of whom are still judging). In singles, at least, the best skater almost always won. If reputation played into it at all, it was that young skaters sometimes were held back. I am thinking of Michelle Kwan in 1995. But that didn’t hurt Tara Lipinski in 1997 and 1998. There was more emphasis on skating clean under the old system, especially in the short program. Anyone who thinks Michelle’s five World Championships were just based on reputation needs to go back and revisit the competitions, especially 2000 and 2001, where she had to come from behind to beat both Irina and Maria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Another number we might look at is consecutive podium appearances. Setting aside Kwan's remarkable streak of 9, here are the skaters who have two or more in a row. (I hope I didn't miss anyone. )

    6.0

    Yamaguchi 2
    Kerrigan 2
    Chen Lu 2
    Bonaly 3
    Butyrskaya 3
    Slutskaya 3
    Suguri 2

    IJS

    Cohen 3 (1 was under 6.0, the next 2 under IJS)
    Asada 2
    Kim 4
    Kostner 4
    Osmond 2
    Medvedeva 2

    (Ando had 3 podium finishes, but not consecutive)

    Alina will probably join that distinguished group next year.
    It is 8 different skaters in 6.0 era repeating their medals, comparing to 5 in IJS/COP era (i excluded Sasha Cohen not because she didnt deserve to be there, but because number of years we are using to compare two samples is not equal, if we not starting to count from 2006)...
    E: And just to add i didn't talk about reputation based judging, I was talking about judging based on a general impression of a skater, and impression is always more directed toward cognitively/emotionaly known things (those are specific terms i used, and even if that can be a cause of more 'biased judging', i didn't imply that Michelle had more reputation comparing to the other skaters - all of 6.0 top skaters shared that kind of 'reputation' equally)

  3. #203
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    How can anyone even contemplate such a thought.
    Her win in 2018 was the perfect poster for Figure Skating as a frivolous, "artistically" dubious, robotic and trick-oriented, tacky-costumed sport that no one can take seriously.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bcash View Post
    How can anyone even contemplate such a thought.
    Her win in 2018 was the perfect poster for Figure Skating as a frivolous, "artistically" dubious, robotic and trick-oriented, tacky-costumed sport that no one can take seriously.
    the people that post here take it very seriously.

  5. #205
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    Alina is my favourite Russian skater at the moment, but I think she has some way to go yet to be considered GOAT. For me, longevity is a big factor and the Russian ladies Butyrskaya and Slutskaya has impressive records.

    Speaking of Slutskaya, I think she did NOT benefit from the old 6.0 system. Had she competed under the new system I think her record would have been even greater, including a OGM in 2002.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jontor View Post
    Speaking of Slutskaya, I think she did NOT benefit from the old 6.0 system. Had she competed under the new system I think her record would have been even greater, including a OGM in 2002.
    She would have won the short program. Sarah Hughes would have been farther behind in the SP. Irina might or might not have won the LP depending on how strict the tech panel was on Sarah. But I think that Irina would have won comfortably overall. (My opinion.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    She would have won the short program. Sarah Hughes would have been farther behind in the SP. Irina might or might not have won the LP depending on how strict the tech panel was on Sarah. But I think that Irina would have won comfortably overall. (My opinion.)
    Yes, I think Slutskaya was the superior technical skater of her era, and would have been much more rewarded for that under current rules. And she was one of few skaters who survived the rule change and was the first world champion with the new points system in 2005.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bcash View Post
    How can anyone even contemplate such a thought.

    Her win in 2018 was the perfect poster for Figure Skating as a frivolous, "artistically" dubious, robotic and trick-oriented, tacky-costumed sport that no one can take seriously.
    I don't think any one skater can take credit for figure skating being a silly and frivolous sport.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't think any one skater can take credit for figure skating being a silly and frivolous sport.
    Or for the costumes (I loathe and detest and find unbearably twee tutus as skating costumes, so can't comment on Alina's) but a lot of popular appeal would be lost if people couldn't over them....

    OTOH, costumes are NOT even to the most biased eyes part of what defines a GOAT or most of the entire 70s-80s contingent would be struck out with impunity.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    She would have won the short program. Sarah Hughes would have been farther behind in the SP. Irina might or might not have won the LP depending on how strict the tech panel was on Sarah. But I think that Irina would have won comfortably overall. (My opinion.)
    It would have been interesting to see how the performances from those skaters would have looked under the new scoring system. I wonder if Michelle and Irina would have skated with more attack, as I think COP encourages a mindset of executing elements to grab points instead of trying to avoid deductions.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Another number we might look at is consecutive podium appearances. Setting aside Kwan's remarkable streak of 9, here are the skaters who have two or more in a row. (I hope I didn't miss anyone. )

    6.0

    Yamaguchi 2
    Kerrigan 2
    Chen Lu 2
    Bonaly 3
    Butyrskaya 3
    Slutskaya 3
    Suguri 2

    IJS

    Cohen 3 (1 was under 6.0, the next 2 under IJS)
    Asada 2
    Kim 4
    Kostner 4
    Osmond 2
    Medvedeva 2

    (Ando had 3 podium finishes, but not consecutive)

    Alina will probably join that distinguished group next year.
    It's actually 5 for Kim (from 2007 to 2011). Sorry for my trifling and partial, if factual, cavil to so sedulously-executed and enlightening an analysis.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyesOfLove View Post
    It's actually 5 for Kim (from 2007 to 2011).
    Thank you. The more I look at these numbers the less confidence I have in the thesis that it was easier for dominant skaters to stay at the top in 6.0 than it is in the current system.

    Under the IJS, Yuna Kim has 8 World and Olympic medals. Carolina Kostner has 7 (plus 11 consecutive European medals). Mao Asada has 6, plus 6 Four Continents and 6 Grand Prix Finals. If there has been a recent change in the sport that works against longevity at the top, I think we have to look at other factors than just the scoring systems.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-28-2019 at 04:58 PM.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Thank you. The more I look at these numbers the less confidence I have in the thesis that it was easier for dominant skaters to stay at the top in 6.0 than it is in the current system.

    Under the IJS, Yuna Kim has 8 World and Olympic medals. Carolina Kostner has 7 (plus 11 consecutive European medals). Mao Asada has 6, plus 6 Four Continents and 6 Grand Prix Finals. If there has been a recent change in the sport that works against longevity at the top, I think we have to look at other factors than just the scoring systems.
    It’s the technical advancement. Especially driven from Russia as each new skater wants to one up their predecessor.

    When there was no one from your country snipping at your heels for the worlds spot, 7 triple programs were enough. Even Satoko the was able to hold her crown as Japan #1 as no one was doing anything “more” from a technical standpoint.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziotic View Post
    It’s the technical advancement. Especially driven from Russia as each new skater wants to one up their predecessor.
    Most likely so.

    Still, the sport has always advanced technically. Skaters of every era want to one up their predecessors. Sonja Henie did fine with a single Axel + single Axel sequence. Then Cecilia Colledge came along with a double Salchow. I remember the big whoop in 1998 when Michelle Kwan was "forced" to upgrade the triple toe in her SP to a triple flip in order to keep up with new expectations.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Thank you. The more I look at these numbers the less confidence I have in the thesis that it was easier for dominant skaters to stay at the top in 6.0 than it is in the current system.

    Under the IJS, Yuna Kim has 8 World and Olympic medals. Carolina Kostner has 7 (plus 11 consecutive European medals). Mao Asada has 6, plus 6 Four Continents and 6 Grand Prix Finals. If there has been a recent change in the sport that works against longevity at the top, I think we have to look at other factors than just the scoring systems.
    But we looked at the numbers and according to those stats the one of the obvious conclusion i see is that it was easier to stay on top back then, comparing to today. And i think you are also aware of the stats which are saying how Michelle and Irina had much more wins comparing to Yuna, Mao and Caro, which is just one more argument for that conclusion.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    But we looked at the numbers and according to those stats the one of the obvious conclusion i see is that it was easier to stay on top back then, comparing to today.
    What I am saying is that the data do not convince me that it is the difference in scoring systems that is responsible. There are other factors that need to be controlled for.

    In fact, I would say that the trend toward shorter careers at the top did not commence when the scoring system changed, but rather some time later -- around 2015 rather than 2005 or 2006. What changed in 2015?

    Julia Lipnitskaia won silver at 2014 worlds and was never heard of again. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva won Worlds in 2015 and that was it. Elena Radionova was one and done. Wagner, Pogoryllia, Daleman, Higuchi -- the same number of world medals as Zagitova, one. Yet these skaters competed under the same scoring system at Kim, Asada and Kostner.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jontor View Post
    Yes, I think Slutskaya was the superior technical skater of her era, and would have been much more rewarded for that under current rules. And she was one of few skaters who survived the rule change and was the first world champion with the new points system in 2005.
    I think the IJS system was designed for her.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    I think the IJS system was designed for her.
    These statistics are interesting in the Ladies event - # of World medals.

    1991-2004 6.0 system - US 20 medals, Russia 10 medals
    2005-2019 IJS system - US 4 medals, Russia 10 medals

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jontor View Post
    These statistics are interesting in the Ladies event - # of World medals.

    1991-2004 6.0 system - US 20 medals, Russia 10 medals
    2005-2019 IJS system - US 4 medals, Russia 10 medals
    I think it is not about a system but a state of ladies field in these countries. For example the 2007-2013 cut will give you

    US 0 medals, Russia 1 medal

    count.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mawwerg View Post
    I think it is not about a system but a state of ladies field in these countries. For example the 2007-2013 cut will give you

    US 0 medals, Russia 1 medal

    count.
    I'm not so sure. I think that under the 6.0 system, the US girls often won medals on the artistic mark, while more technical skaters like Bonaly and Slutskaya suffered. E.g. in 1999 Michelle Kwan had a disastrous skate in the short at Worlds, but the judges held her up in 4th place. She eventually won silver that year. I can't see that happening under the IJS system.

    On the other hand, I think Carolina Kostner has been saved many times with high PCS. But PCS doesn't have the same power like the Artistic mark under the 6.0 system. If Carolina had competed under that era she probably would have won more medals.

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