More competitive field. More consistent ladies with solid 3-3s and 7 triples programs. Most of these ladies weren't exactly bombing left and right after their worlds medal. Radionova for example, the season after wasn't bad. Despite a major grow spurt she medaled at all her events but worlds, the only one who beat Medvedeva that season (she could have beat her twice if things were done in the right way imo). Worlds had the most competitive field till then. Top 7 was above 200 points, which was unprecedented. In 2015, just the 1st was above 200. In fact Radionova did better than when she won a worlds medal. Same for Pogo (Though she had a disastrous FS at worlds. But it was more a mental thing than anything else) or Wagner. Sure the next season was less good for Radionova but not a total bombing. Things just got more difficult in Russia.
Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?
- Thread starter Sam L
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I agree. This factor is more important than the question of one scoring system versus another.
Mawwerg said:
I agree with this as well. As for the U.S. drought, to me the answer is pretty straightforward and has nothing to do with scoring systems, increased technical expectations or more robust competition. U.S. champions like Meissner, Nagaasu, Czisny, Flatt, and Wagner -- love them all -- just were not the equal of Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen (nor of Kristi Yamaguchi, Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding).
Yume said:
Indeed! Carolina Kostner, as the only possibility for Italy, was sent to Worlds 14 straight times. Sometimes she did well, sometimes not so well, picking up 6 medals and finishing off the podium 8 times. No Russian lady has such opportunities guaranteed in the present state of competitiveness.
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Increased technical expectations indeed. But isn't that a consequence of the IJS point system which imo promotes technical progression??
Back in the day, Kwan never did a proper Lutz, she concentrated on the 3T3T combination, and she had wonderful spirals which also made a great artistic impression. But her technical content was never the best among her field. She and her coaches were smart and delivered what was expected from the casual FS audience who couldn't tell the difference between a Lutz and a Toeloop anyway, and spirals are always pleasant to watch but at the same time the easiest technical element (that's why it was dropped in 2012).
If you added a 3A back in the 6.0 days it wouldn't give you that much of an advantage. You would only be 0.1 ahead of the others technically and it could easily be eaten up by a lower artistic mark (see Ludmila Nelidina in SA 2002).
I think the US ladies drought is more the american coaches fault, who haven't progressed with the times and the technical expectations. That's just my opinion.
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Yeah. But more COP/IJS top competitiors didn't came only from Russia but from Asia too. During 6.0 system we had per average one Japanese (or Chinese) fighting for medals. From COP/IJS we have at least 2 Asian (Japanese, Korean and now Kazakhstan) ladies fighting for medals.
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I think the effect of the scoring system is hard to measure. Under 6.0 I think that skaters did try hard to up the technical ante. Dick Button added the double Axel to his 1948 Olympics and the triple loop in 1952. Even though we can't say that this increased his technical score by x number of points, still, I think the judges rewarded his technical advances then just as now.
Michelle started as a precocious jumping bean. As her career progressed she settled into a formula that worked for her. The same is true of the most successful skaters under the IJS system. Yuna Kim presented pretty much the same technical content throughout her career, just like the 6.0 skaters had. Kim did not suddenly start working on a triple Axel and a selection of quads just because the new point system woud have given her some points for doing so.
More recently, is Medvedeva's Lutz any better than Kwan's? And isn't Evgenia doing the same triple-triple combo as she always has (basically, what Kristi Yamaguchi was doing in 1991)? To me, it seems likely that Alina Zagitova might say, "I can beat Med by doing a triple Lutz - triple loop," under 6.0 scoring just like IJS. Then Alexandra Trusova could come along and say, "I can beat them both by doing a quad -- I'll get 5.9 and they will only get 5.8."
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Interesting. And upon checking, it seems that the Asian skaters were the initial winners of the new IJS points system. Both men and women. I can only speculate if the new system was the end of the eastern/western block voting that was so obvious during the 6.0 era. Kerrigan vs Baiul in 1994 and Hughes vs Slutskaya in 2002 comes to mind...
About Hughes vs SLutskaya, TSL had an interesting interview a few months back with the american judge from the olympics 2002. He admitted that he ignored the underrotations Hughes did and marked her ahead of Slutskaya anyway. He also said that if the judge panel had a different mix - Slutskaya would have won for sure. (It was 6 western against 3 eastern judges, the Danish judge sided with Slutskaya though, but it was still 5-4).
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Probably. The bigest difference however is that individual judges can't control final results/placements like they were able to in 6.0 era. Even if you give higher scores to a certain skater that won't necessarily put him/her in first place (cause you can't be certain to which base value your GOE will be aplied and also some of your scores system may not count at all).
Yes, I was thinking of Medvedeva too. Her flutz is still there, maybe not so obvious now since she moved to Orser, but it is still there. The difference though is that Medvedeva gets critique for her Flutz all the time, in Kwan's days no one really cared. Flutzing was never really judged back in those days. And that's my point. Kwan and her coach Carroll was smart back then - why waste energy on correcting something when you can get away with it. I am not saying that Kwan didn't deserve her medals, she was an expert in performing during the rules given, just like Zagitova backloading last year to win the Olympic gold. The American ladies still have the best spirals in the world, and I ask myself why, because they don't get any credit for it. To me it seems the American coaches are still teaching the Kwan-method - great spirals and a 3T3T - that is just not enough these days.
EDIT: I have to correct myself. That last sentence was harsh and untrue. Today's American ladies are better than that. But, have the American coaches lost their touch??
And about Trusova - would she have slayed the field with her quads during 6.0? I honestly don't think so, the judges would have given her a slight technical advantage but probably marked her down on the second score. It will be very interesting though to see how her quads fits in this year in seniors. How will the judges react PCS-wise?
Well, i've never said that. I don't know why you point it out. Actually, Japan is among the most consistent countries on worlds podium these last 20 seasons. There was at least one Japanese on podium 14 seasons. Only 6 seasons without a medal. I would even say that ladies' skating was dominated by Asians from 2007 to 2014. There was at least two Asians on podium during that period, except 2012 and 2014 when there was just one. There was even a total Asian podium in 2007. Asada, Kim and Ando collected 7 titles on 8 possibles.
Plushy did a stint at Eurovision which is still remembered and reshown
And here it is
Russia won because of Plushy!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-72s4WzUcKI
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Point i was trying to prove was how its harder to stay on top today (comparing to 6.0 era) and that not just because of a higher number of top Russian ladies skaters, but also because of the higher number of top Asian skaters. I was just using your post to add this statement about expansion of quality Asian skaters (and not just Russian ladies) to prove my point (based on a comparasion between 6.0 era and COP/IJS era). E: We can even claim that Japanese (single) skating adapted to this change of a system the best. While Russian ladies skating also developed better in this era, they lost a little bit in other disciplines, while USA 'suffered' because of their ladies discipline.
topic:You can see that in my post i talked about international field, so included Asian skaters.
I talked about Russia to point out the internal competition. Because these last seasons it became harder to finish in in Russian top 3. So it's harder to stay on top internationally if it's already difficult to have the occasion to compete against competitors from other countries like the Japaneses.
Some can say that if you can't be selected for big international competitions you are not a skater worthy to be on top. But there are examples like Tuktamysheva who got ditched by her fed while she delivered worlds medal worthy programs at WTT.
I talked about Russia to point out the internal competition. Because these last seasons it became harder to finish in in Russian top 3. So it's harder to stay on top internationally if it's already difficult to have the occasion to compete against competitors from other countries like the Japaneses.
Some can say that if you can't be selected for big international competitions you are not a skater worthy to be on top. But there are examples like Tuktamysheva who got ditched by her fed while she delivered worlds medal worthy programs at WTT.
Point i was trying to prove was how its harder to stay on top today (comparing to 6.0 era) and that not just because of a higher number of top Russian ladies skaters, but also because of the higher number of top Asian skaters. I was just using your post to add this statement about expansion of quality Asian skaters (and not just Russian ladies) to prove my point (based on a comparasion between 6.0 era and COP/IJS era). E: We can even claim that Japanese (single) skating adapted to this change of the system the best. While Russian ladies skating also developed better in this era, they lost a little bit in other disciplines, while USA 'suffered' because of their ladies discipline.
I agree completely that it was easier to stay on top under the 6.0 system. And as I said before, Michelle Kwan at Worlds 1999 is a typical example of how the judges saved her after her "not so good" short program. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta04kTVj2DU
She was 4th after the short which was way too high. You can compare that with the rest of the field https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_World_Figure_Skating_Championships
Kwan would have struggled to make the top 10 under todays rules. I think that even Lucinda Ruh at 12th place was better than Kwan after the short. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Ikxi6Zx4A
Using today's rules in the 1999 competition is pointless though. But even with the rules that was at the time she was overscored. The judges didn't even bother to mark her down on technical.
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Haha. He surely helped. But dont forget the violinist. Being in the arena that night i was most impressed by him in that performance
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I'm not even sure I understand the value of the title "The Greatest". Alina is the current Olympic and World Champion. Historically this puts her up with many of the best ever. Why are people so quick to rush forward to give her the title of "The Greatest".
She is very talented and a very good skater. She is obviously a charming and gracious young lady. I hope she has a great skating career and a fantastic life after skating.
Mohammad Ali is one of the very, very few athletes who I can even think would possibly deserve the title of "The Greatest". Is Alina at Ali's level? No, she is not. She might one day work herself to that level or she may not.
BTW.. I would say that in skating Plushenko gets much closer to the title of "The Greatest" as does G/G, G/P, and the great Irina Rodnina.
She is very talented and a very good skater. She is obviously a charming and gracious young lady. I hope she has a great skating career and a fantastic life after skating.
Mohammad Ali is one of the very, very few athletes who I can even think would possibly deserve the title of "The Greatest". Is Alina at Ali's level? No, she is not. She might one day work herself to that level or she may not.
BTW.. I would say that in skating Plushenko gets much closer to the title of "The Greatest" as does G/G, G/P, and the great Irina Rodnina.
I don’t think judges saving skaters for poor skates was exclusive to 6.0. Look at Euros this year. Alina should not have been second overall. Poor Viveca just suffered from small fed PCS and GOE.
True. Alina had a 10 point advantage over Viveca from the short at Euros which is debatable, and her free was obviously not that great (Viveca beat her on the free and rightly so). The judges held Alina up with PCS. But looking at the scores there is not much you can argue with - the TES deductions were fair, the PCS maybe a little too high. Was the overall impression enough to put Viveca ahead of Alina? I'm not sure - but of course that is just my opinion.
I think it was way easier to "save" a skater back in the 6.0 days though as the judging was always "secret". We never saw a deduction sheet, and no details of the judging was revealed.
TP did its job at this competition. Zagitova got called in both programs like nothing before and her GOEs for clean jumps weren't sky high in the free. So she wasn't that protected. Still, her PCS in the free were too high but that was a lot less than Kostner who is the ultimate example of being held up with PCS (and GOEs).
Getting back on topic - who is the greatest??
As I think longevity is a big factor, I think Elizaveta Tuktamysheva should have an honorable mention. She is competing in a national field that is fiercer than ever and she still have managed to qualify for two GP spots nine years in a row. (Is that a record?). She had a great season last year although she never went to Euros and Worlds. She is still going strong and I admire her for it - it takes guts to continue competing in that insane competitive field that is Russia. When I saw the Ladies Russian Nationals last year it was the best "world championship" I have ever seen. And Tuktamysheva wasn't even there. I am curious to see how she holds up this season. I hope she will have many more years on the FS circuit. Best of luck to her.
As I think longevity is a big factor, I think Elizaveta Tuktamysheva should have an honorable mention. She is competing in a national field that is fiercer than ever and she still have managed to qualify for two GP spots nine years in a row. (Is that a record?). She had a great season last year although she never went to Euros and Worlds. She is still going strong and I admire her for it - it takes guts to continue competing in that insane competitive field that is Russia. When I saw the Ladies Russian Nationals last year it was the best "world championship" I have ever seen. And Tuktamysheva wasn't even there. I am curious to see how she holds up this season. I hope she will have many more years on the FS circuit. Best of luck to her.
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