Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

ancientpeas · Jun 29, 2019

Jontor said:
Getting back on topic - who is the greatest??

As I think longevity is a big factor, I think Elizaveta Tuktamysheva should have an honorable mention. She is competing in a national field that is fiercer than ever and she still have managed to qualify for two GP spots nine years in a row. (Is that a record?). She had a great season last year although she never went to Euros and Worlds. She is still going strong and I admire her for it - it takes guts to continue competing in that insane competitive field that is Russia. When I saw the Ladies Russian Nationals last year it was the best "world championship" I have ever seen. And Tuktamysheva wasn't even there. I am curious to see how she holds up this season. I hope she will have many more years on the FS circuit. Best of luck to her.

I like Tuktamysheva a lot (mostly because she is plucky and bold with beautiful jumps) and I hope she has a great season.

Greatest currently skating: Hard not to be Alina here but I think Carolina deserves at least an honourable mention.
Greatest of the 21st century: Probably Yuna Kim for me.

yume · Jun 29, 2019

Jontor said:
Getting back on topic - who is the greatest??

As I think longevity is a big factor, I think Elizaveta Tuktamysheva should have an honorable mention. She is competing in a national field that is fiercer than ever and she still have managed to qualify for two GP spots nine years in a row. (Is that a record?). She had a great season last year although she never went to Euros and Worlds. She is still going strong and I admire her for it - it takes guts to continue competing in that insane competitive field that is Russia. When I saw the Ladies Russian Nationals last year it was the best "world championship" I have ever seen. And Tuktamysheva wasn't even there. I am curious to see how she holds up this season. I hope she will have many more years on the FS circuit. Best of luck to her.

Leonova competed in GP for a long time but i don't know if it matches Tukt's nine seasons.

Japanese nats were worlds level too. A lot of good skates. Incredible that the one who delivered higher BVs than the champion and had the cleanest judges' scores (not a single negative GOE) finished 4th. And that the girl who landed three 3As and had two clean skates finished 8th.

There are not greatest currently skating for me. But if i have to give a name: Rika Kihira.

Jontor · Jun 29, 2019

yume said:
Leonova competed in GP for a long time but i don't know if it matches Tukt's nine seasons.

Yes Leonova competed longer, so did also Sokolova, Slutskaya and Kostner, but none of them has nine consecutive years with two spots, so I think Tukt might have a record here

Mathman · Jun 29, 2019

ancientpeas said:
I like Tuktamysheva a lot (mostly because she is plucky and bold with beautiful jumps) and I hope she has a great season.

Greatest currently skating: Hard not to be Alina here ...

To me, its "we'll see." Medvedeva had two great seasons where she won everything. Then she was pipped at the post by a younger phenom.

Now Alina has been on top for two years. What will happen in the upcoming season?

Jontor · Jun 29, 2019

Mathman said:
To me, its "we'll see." Medvedeva had two great seasons where she won everything. Then she was pipped at the post by a younger phenom.

Now Alina has been on top for two years. What will happen in the upcoming season?

Yes, it will be an exciting season. I expect a lot of surprises. Thinking back last year - who would have thought Samodurova would win Euros?, Tuktamysheva medalling at GPF?, Kihira winning GPF? Shcherbakova winning Russian Nationals? Tursynbaeva taking silver at Worlds? They were all surprises, I wonder what is in store for this season... :popcorn:

TA91 · Jun 29, 2019

Jontor said:
Yes Leonova competed longer, so did also Sokolova, Slutskaya and Kostner, but none of them has nine consecutive years with two spots, so I think Tukt might have a record here

I'm sure Irina qualified for two GP spots in the 03-04 season, she just couldn't skate them because she was dealing with vasculitis, which was your original question. Now if you ask who actually skated them, then to my knowledge as well, that would be only Tuktamysheva.

Mathman · Jun 29, 2019

TA91 said:
Now if you ask who actually skated them, then to my knowledge as well, that would be only Tuktamysheva.

Counting 2019-2020. (Not wishing my fave Elizaveta any bad luck, of course.)

Jontor · Jun 29, 2019

Mathman said:
Counting 2019-2020. (Not wishing my fave Elizaveta any bad luck, of course.)

Checking checking - and I just found a skater who has 11 consecutive years skating at two GP events - Mao Asada. So Tukt has 3 more seasons to go

Mathman · Jun 29, 2019

Asada's coolest GP year was 2005-06, where she beat Sasha Cohen and Shizuka Arakawa at Trophee Bompard, and Irina Slutskaya at the GP final. Thus dominating the entire 2006 Olympic podium. :yes:

In pairs, Shen and Zhao have 9 consecutive and 11 overall.

Ziotic · Jun 29, 2019

Megan Duhamel has 11 consecutive GP seasons, just with different partners.

LiamForeman · Jun 29, 2019

Greatest ever is always a grey area. My grandfather went to his grave thinking baseball player Ty Cobb was the GOAT for instance. Winning the 'grand slam' of figure skating doesn't really mean much. Do you think Tara Lipinski should ever be considered as GOAT even though she won Nationals, GPF, Worlds, and Olympics? There should be some 'longevity' or some period of dominance, or something special about the athlete.

If I could build a potential GOAT skater, she would have the edge quality and flow of a Japanese skater, the jump difficulty and consistency of an Eteri skater, the spinning ability of a Swiss skater, and the presentation of a John Nicks skater. Imagine how perfect that skater would be!!! LOL

Baron Vladimir · Jun 29, 2019

Ziotic said:
I don’t think judges saving skaters for poor skates was exclusive to 6.0. Look at Euros this year. Alina should not have been second overall. Poor Viveca just suffered from small fed PCS and GOE.

I thought noone at that Europeans got high PCS boost (comparing to their own past results) as Viveca btw (you can compare scores she was getting outside last Europeans with the one she got there to see what I am talking about). So I dont see anything poor in a way how judges scored Viveca at Europeans. The other question is if that boost was high enough for better placement.

VenusHalley · Jun 30, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
I thought noone at that Europeans got high PCS boost (comparing to their own past results) as Viveca btw (you can compare scores she was getting outside last Europeans with the one she got there to see what I am talking about). So I dont see anything poor in a way how judges scored Viveca at Europeans. The other question is if that boost was high enough for better placement.

Viveca skated clean, skated well and gotten lower PCS that Alina with her carrot cake mess of a skate? OGM or not, it was a travesty she gotten highest PCS there and it was some generous dousing in points.

She may deserve her scores when she skates well, but this and on Russian nationals, it was blatant overscoring and judges were taking her OGM in account. Which is ridiculous. Do other sports get this advantage? For example skiers screwing up a ride but judges go "Ohhhh, but he is OGM, let's take off two seconds of the time".

yume · Jun 30, 2019

In figure skating you doesn't need to be OGM to get some favors. You just need to be among the chosen ones. I know at least two current skaters being held up like that all the time without being OGM. And most of the GOATs candidates named in this thread have competitions where they got scored generously despite several mistakes.
And realistically i would have been surprised if judges had cut like 14 points from her SB (74) so she would have been behind Viveca in PCS because she got many carrots.
And if Viveca had been clean herself she would have got that silver.

Scott512 · Jun 30, 2019

VenusHalley said:
Viveca skated clean, skated well and gotten lower PCS that Alina with her carrot cake mess of a skate? OGM or not, it was a travesty she gotten highest PCS there and it was some generous dousing in points.

She may deserve her scores when she skates well, but this and on Russian nationals, it was blatant overscoring and judges were taking her OGM in account. Which is ridiculous. Do other sports get this advantage? For example skiers screwing up a ride but judges go "Ohhhh, but he is OGM, let's take off two seconds of the time".

It's the Eteri advantage! Others have benefited from the Eteri advantage as well with more to come this year.

Some would say Alina skated the two most difficult programs at the Olympics flawlessly. Well the judges thought that as well. Although the long program was a tie between Alina and Evgenia and deservedly so in my opinion it was that close and that great. It was historic greatness in ladies figure skating in my opinion and a pleasure to see.

yume · Jun 30, 2019

Back on topic. I think that if there are GOATs for the three last olympic quads it's the famously called "the holy trinity". Kim, Kostner, Asada.
My ranking is:
1. Kim
2. Asada
3. Kostner
Titles and medals are taken into account but also the influence and legacy.

Baron Vladimir · Jun 30, 2019

VenusHalley said:
Viveca skated clean, skated well and gotten lower PCS that Alina with her carrot cake mess of a skate? OGM or not, it was a travesty she gotten highest PCS there and it was some generous dousing in points.

She may deserve her scores when she skates well, but this and on Russian nationals, it was blatant overscoring and judges were taking her OGM in account. Which is ridiculous. Do other sports get this advantage? For example skiers screwing up a ride but judges go "Ohhhh, but he is OGM, let's take off two seconds of the time".

You can't compare scores of two skaters to conclude if someone is overscored or underscored. The facts are, Alina's components drop almost 5 points at Europeans while Viveca's components rised almost 5 points from her previous scores, so it's not that judges were blatantly underscoring one skater and blatantly overscoring another. (I mean, if you want to see that someone is overscored by the judges, you will find a reason for it. Its like people complained how much Alina's components rised from her junior years when she became a senior, without seeing that Kaori's components rised exactly the same, and Bradie's components rised even higher.)

Mathman · Jun 30, 2019

LiamForeman said:
My grandfather went to his grave thinking baseball player Ty Cobb was the GOAT for instance.

Well, of course Ty Cobb was the GOAT. He still holds the record for highest lifetime batting average (.367) and highest total runs scored + runs batted in (4065).

On the other hand, he can't really be the GOAT because he was a mean old cuss and everybody hated him.

Mathman · Jun 30, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
You can't compare scores of two skaters to conclude if someone is overscored or underscored....

I will ibe very interested to see, in the coming season, how the international judges handle the PCSs for the Trusova-Scherbakova generation, compared to the established seniors. Will the youngsters have to "pay their dues" first?

If we assume that the baby quadsters will deliver on their base value, I would predict that they won't suffer so terribly much on GOE. After all, a quad Lutz (no edge call, no UR) is certain to get at least +1 GOE, even if it is only avaerage in quality, just because it is a quad Lutz.

But a quad Lutz with +1 GOE is only about 4 points higher than a triple Lutz with +4 GOE, which is what Zagitova and her cohort will be getting. This is basically the difference between PCSs of 9.0 versus 8.5.

Will the PCSs of the new seniors rise over the course of the season as they establish themselves as the real deal technically?

zounger · Jun 30, 2019

Mathman said:
Will the PCSs of the new seniors rise over the course of the season as they establish themselves as the real deal technically?

They need to demonstrate the necessary consistency otherwise, I don't see their PCS rise significantly or at least in the rate it was for their peers the seasons before.

Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

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