Alina Zagitova, the Greatest? | Page 14 | Golden Skate

Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

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ruga

Final Flight
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Oct 20, 2017
I will ibe very interested to see, in the coming season, how the international judges handle the PCSs for the Trusova-Scherbakova generation, compared to the established seniors. Will the youngsters have to "pay their dues" first?

If we assume that the baby quadsters will deliver on their base value, I would predict that they won't suffer so terribly much on GOE. After all, a quad Lutz (no edge call, no UR) is certain to get at least +1 GOE, even if it is only avaerage in quality, just because it is a quad Lutz.

But a quad Lutz with +1 GOE is only about 4 points higher than a triple Lutz with +4 GOE, which is what Zagitova and her cohort will be getting. This is basically the difference between PCSs of 9.0 versus 8.5.

Will the PCSs of the new seniors rise over the course of the season as they establish themselves as the real deal technically?

Once they deliver a few clean(ish) performances, their components will definitely rise to 9s (Kostornaia's may grow even higher). For example, Kihira's components rose after she delivered clean short program, I believe the scenario will be similar to 3A.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Will the PCSs of the new seniors rise over the course of the season as they establish themselves as the real deal technically?
Well, Medvedeva and Zagitova didn't have to wait. They got high pcs, beating most of top senior's pcs, from the first competitions.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I will ibe very interested to see, in the coming season, how the international judges handle the PCSs for the Trusova-Scherbakova generation, compared to the established seniors. Will the youngsters have to "pay their dues" first?

If we assume that the baby quadsters will deliver on their base value, I would predict that they won't suffer so terribly much on GOE. After all, a quad Lutz (no edge call, no UR) is certain to get at least +1 GOE, even if it is only avaerage in quality, just because it is a quad Lutz.

But a quad Lutz with +1 GOE is only about 4 points higher than a triple Lutz with +4 GOE, which is what Zagitova and her cohort will be getting. This is basically the difference between PCSs of 9.0 versus 8.5.

Will the PCSs of the new seniors rise over the course of the season as they establish themselves as the real deal technically?

Of course they will rise if they perform the best they can. All of juniors components scores in recent years rised when they start competing as seniors (and not just Alina's and Zhenya's scores, but also Kaoris, Bradies and Rikas last year). And that was hapening in every other discipline. Its a fact to me (and there is a reasonable explanation for it btw) :confused2: And Trusova already had the highest scored 3-3 combo last season (not counting 3A combo) including senior skaters. I mean everything can happen, but not expecting from Trusova to have good scores next season if she performs like she can, sounds totally unrealistic to me.
EDIT: This is how component scores rised for now established senior skaters from their last junior worlds to their first senior worlds/olympic. Zhenya SP from 29 to 34 and FP from 60 to 72. Wakaba SP from 25 to 29 and FP from 55 to 64. Alina SP from 30 to 37 and FP from 62 to 74. Kaori SP from 29 to 33 and FP from 60 to 69. Braide SP from 25 to 31 and FP from 51 to 65. Rika SP from 29 to 34 and FP from 58 to 71. Maybe not all of them have so clean performances from one competition to another, but aproximately, we can expect jump in componets of junior skaters to almost 5 points in SP and 10 points in FP. So Trusova's components as senior will most likely be 35 in SP and 70 in FP at Worlds. Kostornaya's - even higher :biggrin:
 

jenaj

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I'm not so sure. I think that under the 6.0 system, the US girls often won medals on the artistic mark, while more technical skaters like Bonaly and Slutskaya suffered. E.g. in 1999 Michelle Kwan had a disastrous skate in the short at Worlds, but the judges held her up in 4th place. She eventually won silver that year. I can't see that happening under the IJS system.

On the other hand, I think Carolina Kostner has been saved many times with high PCS. But PCS doesn't have the same power like the Artistic mark under the 6.0 system. If Carolina had competed under that era she probably would have won more medals.

No skater was more held up under 6.0 than "technical" skater Slutskaya.
 

chuckm

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Aug 31, 2003
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United-States
Did you ever take a good look at Slutskaya's "spiral" or her "Biellmann"? For each of those moves, she would grab her skate and hold it behind her head, over her back, not above her head, yet she got credit for both. No way was her spiral equal to Kwan's, nor her "Biellmann" anywhere close to a true Biellmann.
 

TA91

Rinkside
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Dec 29, 2018
Did you ever take a good look at Slutskaya's "spiral" or her "Biellmann"? For each of those moves, she would grab her skate and hold it behind her head, over her back, not above her head, yet she got credit for both. No way was her spiral equal to Kwan's, nor her "Biellmann" anywhere close to a true Biellmann.

And the judges and commentators and viewers always acknowledged that her spirals weren't as good as Kwan's or Cohen's. I've literally never heard anyone say that they were. But they aren't that bad, especially compared to thie generations after and she did what she could with them.

When it comes to her Biellmann, yes they weren't conventional but it was easier for her to get it into that position that way. It's the same way a majority of skaters have a lot of pre-rotation and non use of toepicks on their jumps. While the technique isn't textbook, the judges still take it, especially when you are the person that created the double Biellmann spin.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To me, Slutskaya's Biellmann looked funny because she would grab he skate with one hand with her other hand holding her wrist.

https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...in-during-free-picture-id1148307794?s=612x612

But then again, here is Denise Biellmann.

http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/pictures/kjohnsto/nb_camp1.gif

Anyway, nobody's perfect. Michelle Kwan's layback wasn't as strong as more flexible skaters'. As far as I know she never attempted an Ina Bauer. How the judges weighed these pros and cons is not always easy to determine under ordinal judging systems.

Edit: Never mind. That's Nicole Bobeck. :laugh:

Here's Denise:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HaPbLnXOQAw/TTEL525ZPPI/AAAAAAAAA2o/zWzxFQCTBmM/s1600/deniseb.jpg

I'll just leave this here. ;)

http://figureskatingposts.weebly.com/uploads/5/0/2/8/50285239/tumblr-nhqm0zmgwx1rmwtulo3-400.jpg?280
 
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Georgya

On the Ice
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Sep 6, 2018
I don't know if Alina is greatest or GOAT or whatever. I am a figure skating type of fan that barely knows to identify the jumps. Considering this, my opinion is that Alina has skated probably the hardest, busiest, more difficult programs in the history of women figure skating during the last two seasons. You have to be a phenomenal athlete to pull off the way she did FP like Don Quijote or Carmen.

I often assess skaters by the way my friends who are not figure skating fans react to them. Alina has a star power which sets her apart from the rest of the ladies.

Interpretation in figure skating it's not like in gymnastics or ballet, a Marin Honda type of program often bores people, Alina type of program and the way she skates when she is on demand attention. All in all, Alina has earned a high place in the history of figure skating and that nobody can take away from her, even those who dislike her.
 

Jontor

Medalist
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Country
Sweden
I don't know if Alina is greatest or GOAT or whatever. I am a figure skating type of fan that barely knows to identify the jumps. Considering this, my opinion is that Alina has skated probably the hardest, busiest, more difficult programs in the history of women figure skating during the last two seasons. You have to be a phenomenal athlete to pull off the way she did FP like Don Quijote or Carmen.

I often assess skaters by the way my friends who are not figure skating fans react to them. Alina has a star power which sets her apart from the rest of the ladies.

Interpretation in figure skating it's not like in gymnastics or ballet, a Marin Honda type of program often bores people, Alina type of program and the way she skates when she is on demand attention. All in all, Alina has earned a high place in the history of figure skating and that nobody can take away from her, even those who dislike her.

Very well said. I agree that Alina has the full package - she is both athletic and artistic, and she has the star quality. Not many skaters have that.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I don't know if Alina is greatest or GOAT or whatever. I am a figure skating type of fan that barely knows to identify the jumps. Considering this, my opinion is that Alina has skated probably the hardest, busiest, more difficult programs in the history of women figure skating during the last two seasons...

:rock:

There is, though, something more to be said. To be the greatest of all time you need to stand the test of time. Thirty years from now will we still be including Alina in GOAT discussions the way that Katarina Witt still has a presence?

What if the new crop of rising seniors skates programs that are even harder, even busier, even more technically demanding (and don't forget QUADS) than Alina's? Are we entering an era where every champion is "Thanks, next?"
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
There is, though, something more to be said. To be the greatest of all time you need to stand the test of time. Thirty years from now will we still be including Alina in GOAT discussions the way that Katarina Witt still has a presence?

It's really not even the same sport when skaters before 1991 spent more than half their training time on figures. Nonetheless, if we must compare skaters from different eras, we can only look at accomplishments. I can't hold it against Witt that she didn't do the 3Lz because she didn't need it to win in her era, like Yuna didn't need the 3Lo to win in hers. Both stand the test of time because of what they won. I think Alina needs a few more years of good results to get anywhere close to Witt.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It's really not even the same sport when skaters before 1991 spent more than half their training time on figures. Nonetheless, if we must compare skaters from different eras, we can only look at accomplishments.

Even then there will be arguments. Robin Cousins won the 1980 Olympic gold medal. But did he benefit from a deal whereby the judges would automatically give Cousins the gold over East German Jan Hoffmann in exchange for East German Annet Poetesch being placed above American Linda Fratianne?

Fortunately we can review the actual performances and decide whether a skater, past or present, gave a good performance or not, regardless of the placement. That is why I think that "body of work" is the key to everything.
 

catjohnsn2

Spectator
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Irina was a technical skater, not an artistic one. She moved from one element to the next like a robot. Don't get me wrong....she did incredible jumps but her programs appeared to be a collection of elements and not a composition of emotion, athleticism, and story telling. She battled illness and made an amazing come back but she was more of an athlete and not an artistic skater.

We all have opinions and these are my thoughts.
 

TallyT

Record Breaker
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Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
:rock:

There is, though, something more to be said. To be the greatest of all time you need to stand the test of time. Thirty years from now will we still be including Alina in GOAT discussions the way that Katarina Witt still has a presence?

"History is not what you thought. It is what you can remember." Sellars and Yeatman.

Sorry, but this and the Yuzuru-as-greatest thread did make me think of these words from a favourite book. Having a look at the list of Olympic and World champions over the years, there are a number of heavy hitting, multiple-gold-medal names that relative newbies like me never hear mentioned, never seem to get nominated for 'greatest' and who have lapsed into relative obscurity, while Peggy Fleming, Janet Lynn, Sonja Henie, Yuna and Michelle still and always seem part of the collective consciousness.

Comes back to that legend thing... how do we predict who is going to be a part of these arguments in ten, twenty years time? Can you be a GOAT for a couple of years and then just a name on a list, or a set of videos that people don't remember where they've stored? Me... I think yes you can. Not maybe the, but a... yes.
 

Georgya

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
:rock:

There is, though, something more to be said. To be the greatest of all time you need to stand the test of time. Thirty years from now will we still be including Alina in GOAT discussions the way that Katarina Witt still has a presence?

What if the new crop of rising seniors skates programs that are even harder, even busier, even more technically demanding (and don't forget QUADS) than Alina's? Are we entering an era where every champion is "Thanks, next?"

I see your point but I think that the test of time is relative and doesn't matter. Also who's better? Zagitova vs Witt, Nadia Comaneci vs Simone Biles, Pele vs Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo. It's pointless. Different times, harsher competition, more difficult programs, tougher rules. It'a like that meme about the futility of comparing: kids or drunk people fighting about who will win in a fight Bruce Lee or Van Damme :laugh:

You can be a great athlete, remembered or revered without a big title/medal. Or you can win everything and dominate and still have little fame - especially in not so popular sports. It kills me to say it but, let's think outside our bubble here, if you go tomorrow on streets in Romania and ask random people who Yuzuru Hanyu is I don't know if 1/10 people would know him. And that despite him being a legend in Japan, and dominating this sport in the last 7 years. Now ask the same people about Plushenko :)

Alina may grow to be a legend in Russia even if US or Canada will not remember her in the next 10 years. The same way, Michelle Kwan is a goddess in US or Asia but not so popular in Europe. It's relative who will know your name after a certain period of time, but the olympic/world title will remain in the books whether you like it or not.
 
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