Alina Zagitova, the Greatest? | Page 15 | Golden Skate

Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

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Scott512

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I see your point but I think that the test of time is relative and doesn't matter. Also who's better? Zagitova vs Witt, Nadia Comaneci vs Simone Biles, Pele vs Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo. It's pointless. Different times, harsher competition, more difficult programs, tougher rules. It'a like that meme about the futility of comparing: kids or drunk people fighting about who will win in a fight Bruce Lee or Van Damme :laugh:

You can be a great athlete, remembered or revered without a big title/medal. Or you can win everything and dominate and still have little fame - especially in not so popular sports. It kills me to say it but, let's think outside our bubble here, if you go tomorrow on streets in Romania and ask random people who Yuzuru Hanyu is I don't know if 1/10 people would know him. And that despite him being a legend in Japan, and dominating this sport in the last 7 years. Now ask the same people about Plushenko :)

Alina may grow to be a legend in Russia even if US or Canada will not remember her in the next 10 years. The same way, Michelle Kwan is a goddess in US or Asia but not so popular in Europe. It's relative who will know your name after a certain period of time, but the olympic/world title will remain in the books whether you like it or not.

Well said. I agree 100%.
 

Kittosuni

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Aside from Zagitova, are there other skaters who achieved the grand slam gold (Olympic, Worlds, Euro/4CC, GPF, Junior Worlds, Junior GPF??
 

ruga

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Aside from Zagitova, are there other skaters who achieved the grand slam (Olympic, Worlds, Euro/4CC, GPF, Junior Worlds, Junior GPF??
Yuna Kim
Also Mao Asada comes quite close with her silver medal from Olympics.
 

Ali81

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I think it is really premature to vest her this title . Personally , she would struggle to break into a top 5 GOAT list . Her hunched posture , angular jerky upper body movements are not visually appealing and she doesn’t connect on an emotional level .
She needs a few more big titles , sustained period of dominance and atleast one or two barnstormer performances on the highest stage to even enter the conversation with the likes of Yuna , Asada , Kwan etc .
 

halulupu

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IMO she still needs to deliver a real memorable performance/programme which connects emotionally, creates goosebumps...
 

flanker

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I think it is really premature to vest her this title . Personally , she would struggle to break into a top 5 GOAT list . Her hunched posture , angular jerky upper body movements are not visually appealing and she doesn’t connect on an emotional level .
She needs a few more big titles , sustained period of dominance and atleast one or two barnstormer performances on the highest stage to even enter the conversation with the likes of Yuna , Asada , Kwan etc .

Alina doesn't need to enter conversations, she has entered competitions above all, with the results that speak for themselves. I am not exactly a friend of the GOAT title, but Alina can be measured with superiority with anyone on the list.

IMO she still needs to deliver a real memorable performance/programme which connects emotionally, creates goosebumps...

DQ is "a real memorable performance" as well as Black Swan. There will always be several individuals who will not recognize it, from various reasons, but that won't change the reality.
 

CellarDweller

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Am I the only one who doesn't like the term "greatest of all time"?

Not trying to be argumentative, but there's really no way to award that, as someone else will always come along and be better, it's just the nature of things.

Someone will always sell more, do more, become a first at something, break a record, it's what people do.

I can remember people saying Elvis Presley was the GOAT because he had the unbeatable records of 17 #1 hits, and 36 Top 10 hits, and then on the exact same week, Mariah Carey got her 18th #1 hit, and Madonna got her 37th Top 10 hit.

I'm sure there were people saying that Thomas Litz was the GOAT because he was the first to land a triple jump.

Why do we have to name a 'GOAT'? Can't we just enjoy what each skater has to offer?
 
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Alina doesn't need to enter conversations, she has entered competitions.

:rock: :laugh:

Am I the only one who doesn't like the term "greatest of all time"?

Judging from the posts on this thread and the Hanyu thread, I would say that almost nobody likes the term Greatest of All Time. ;)

But what are you going to do? That's the nature of sports fans -- my team is the greatest, your's wouldn't have a chance! Who's the best shortstop of all time, Ernie Banks or Honus Wagner? I'll bet my Beer Nuts to your pretzels on it. :)
 

CellarDweller

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Judging from the posts on this thread and the Hanyu thread, I would say that almost nobody likes the term Greatest of All Time. ;)

But what are you going to do? That's the nature of sports fans -- my team is the greatest, your's wouldn't have a chance! Who's the best shortstop of all time, Ernie Banks or Honus Wagner? I'll bet my Beer Nuts to your pretzels on it. :)

You're correct, I can't deny that.

Another issue that comes with labeling somebody a 'goat' would be what is the criteria for that? Each person would have their own way to determine someone is a 'goat'.

Take Alina....for the sake of conversation, let's just say after her successes last season, for some reason, she's not able to get on the podium again, and opts to retire from the sport.

Now, some may say: "Alina has the Grand Slam: Olympics, Worlds, Europeans and GPF. So she's the GOAT."

I would disagree. To me a "great" is someone who was able to reach a certain level of success and sustain it over a period of time. So for me, Michelle Kwan is a "GOAT". For a period of 9 years (95-96 to 03-04) Michelle was able to finish on the podium of the World Championships, and along the way picked up numerous medals on the GP circuit and two Olympic medals.

Now, someone else may come and say that because she's never won Olympic gold, Michelle is not a GOAT.

It's an argument that can't be settled, because each person brings their own standards and opinions to what they think is a "GOAT".
 

TallyT

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Am I the only one who doesn't like the term "greatest of all time"?

Not trying to be argumentative, but there's really no way to award that, as someone else will always come along and be better, it's just the nature of things.

Someone will always sell more, do more, become a first at something, break a record, it's what people do.

I can remember people saying Elvis Presley was the GOAT because he had the unbeatable records of 17 #1 hits, and 36 Top 10 hits, and then on the exact same week, Mariah Carey got her 18th #1 hit, and Madonna got her 37th Top 10 hit.

I'm sure there were people saying that Thomas Litz was the GOAT because he was the first to land a triple jump.

Why do we have to name a 'GOAT'? Can't we just enjoy what each skater has to offer?

We have to because we are human, and there are previous few areas of human endeavour where we don't. I agree, it's impossible, but that is never ever going to stop people claiming and acclaiming their favourites as the very very best. (A few months ago, our classical music station ran a poll of classical composers, and you should have heard the wails and bickering when Mozart only came third... and that would be harder to quantify than skating, just as skating is way harder to quantify than a purely technical sport like javelin).

Me, I think we should make a rule that the word "my" has to go before the word "GOAT" in all cases. But I'd never remember to either....
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Now, some may say: "Alina has the Grand Slam: Olympics, Worlds, Europeans and GPF. So she's the GOAT."

I would disagree. To me a "great" is someone who was able to reach a certain level of success and sustain it over a period of time. So for me, Michelle Kwan is a "GOAT". For a period of 9 years (95-96 to 03-04) Michelle was able to finish on the podium of the World Championships, and along the way picked up numerous medals on the GP circuit and two Olympic medals.

I think longevity is important, too. A skater could win the "grand slam" in a span of four months, so I don't think that achievement, as impressive as it is, would make a skater rank above all others. Being at the very top of your sport for several years like Witt and Kim is far more impressive IMO.
 
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What seems funny to me is when people ask, "Who is the greatest in the history of figure skating?" And then go on to say, "Don't bother me by bringing up the achievements of the greats of the past." Um ...

The argument, "But Ulrich Salchow didn't have a triple Axel" is kind of like saying, Julius Caesar (or Sun Tse) was not much of a military strategist because he didn't have an atom bomb. Therefore the head of the armed forces of today's Pakistan (Zubair Mahmood Hayat) is a greater historical figure because his army could beat the army of Julius Caesar (presumably by bombing Caesar's airports.)
 

tokoyami

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What seems funny to me is when people ask, "Who is the greatest in the history of figure skating?" And then go on to say, "Don't bother me by bringing up the achievements of the greats of the past." Um ...

The argument, "But Ulrich Salchow didn't have a triple Axel" is kind of like saying, Julius Caesar (or Sun Tse) was not much of a military strategist because he didn't have an atom bomb. Therefore the head of the armed forces of today's Pakistan (Zubair Mahmood Hayat) is a greater historical figure because his army could beat the army of Julius Caesar (presumably by bombing Caesar's airports.)

well that's flawed, for one, no one is trying to dispute the historical achievements of past skaters. Second, I think it's fair to discuss technical components especially in a sport

I figure that if we have two skaters who have had long careers, dominant showings, and have had a lot of firsts, the best way to dispute who is stronger is by looking at their technical and artistic components. That's the natural way to compare athletes after all
 

nussnacker

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What seems funny to me is when people ask, "Who is the greatest in the history of figure skating?" And then go on to say, "Don't bother me by bringing up the achievements of the greats of the past." Um ...

The argument, "But Ulrich Salchow didn't have a triple Axel" is kind of like saying, Julius Caesar (or Sun Tse) was not much of a military strategist because he didn't have an atom bomb. Therefore the head of the armed forces of today's Pakistan (Zubair Mahmood Hayat) is a greater historical figure because his army could beat the army of Julius Caesar (presumably by bombing Caesar's airports.)

Well, Mathman, can we say Usain Bolt isn't the greatest sprinter because of the improvement in training methods, running surface, clothing/shoes, time measurements took place?
Maybe =) But those things are natural progression in any sport, so does this mean any athlete of the future will be inferior to the athletes of the past/can't be greater than them?
Sure figure skating experienced quite some number of tools that helped athletes to add revolutions to their jumps. But the same happened in all other disciplines.

With technical advancements in sport, athletes are able to push the limits of human possibilities, but it isn't only due to those advancements the sport takes progress.
It's also the people in it. It's also due to some natural selection (men/women in FS and gymnastics having shorter/leaner build on average), and a sheer talent of those people.

Whether there were those advancements or not, kids pushed this sport further than previous generations, I think they deserve a credit for being greater than their predecessors despite having some help with newer technology.
 
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That's the natural way to compare athletes after all

Mano a mano, yes. Is Trusova better than Zagitova? We'll find out at the Grand Prix Final (maybe).

But as for the greatest in HISTORY I think we have to examine the notion of "history" more broadly and deeply.
 
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It's also due to some natural selection (men/women in FS and gymnastics having shorter/leaner build on average), and a sheer talent of those people.

I guess so (although we usually think of natural selection as a process that operates over millions of years ;) ). Still, there were short and thin skaters in the past (Sonia Henie was 155 cm and 45 kg.) But maybe there is a bigger pool of aspirants than in the past?

Whether there were those advancements or not, kids pushed this sport further than previous generations,

Absolutely. :rock: Tiger Woods deserves praise right up there with Jack Nicklaus because Woods was the first golfer who tried to exercise, get fit, build up his muscles, etc. (Except for Gary Player in the 1960s.)

Maybe next year Coco Gauff will be the greatest tennis player of all time, and good for her!

Anyway, I don't think it is too much to ask that we hold off until an athlete's career is complete before we try to assign his/her place in history.
 
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el henry

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The test of time is the *only* test that matters. Otherwise, why say greatest of all time? :confused:

Physical prowess today, for me, simply cannot be the standard. The Roman Army was one of the world’s great armies, even if any army today from any two bit country could destroy them in half an hour. That’s not a convincing test to me. :shrug:

Nor is the test that some skater today can jump 85 mega bazooka jumps in one program and skaters back then could only do three a year. Not the test. :shrug:

Toller Cranston did not jump the most mega bazooka jumps of his time, yet he is remembered as one of the greatest. :luv17:Others are not.

And I’ve been watching this sport for 45 plus years, so yes I know it’s a sport. And in this sport, we’ll just need to wait 45 years before anointing anyone skating today. Those of you who will still be here can do that, but I’ll be the ghostly voice for Toller :laugh:

ETA: and as for ladies, not anyone who has been skating senior for two years, not “of all time”. We need to wait and see.
 
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drivingmissdaisy

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I figure that if we have two skaters who have had long careers, dominant showings, and have had a lot of firsts, the best way to dispute who is stronger is by looking at their technical and artistic components. That's the natural way to compare athletes after all

I don't agree. Compare Witt vs Kim, for example. Yes, the technical level Kim showed was higher. However, Witt spent more than half her training time working on figures, which Yuna wasn't required to do. But for figures, Midori Ito could have been a 2x Olympic medalist and 2x World Champion (at least), and she is left out of GOAT discussion only because of her lack of winning more big titles. Really, as soon as figures were dropped, the technical level in the next couple of years came really close to what we're seeing today. So, to me, titles do matter and if you're the best of your era, your achievements shouldn't be discounted because the focus of the sport was on figures rather than free skating.
 
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