Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

andromache said:

I see Alina's "grand slam" referenced here pretty often and I was not aware figure skating had a grand slam, so I googled it. Here is the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(figure_skating)#Ladies'_singles

It appears as though OGM does not count for a Grand Slam. And Alina does not have one, though she does have a "Career Grand Slam" (as do many other ladies).

OGM counts for a "Golden Slam," but Alina does not have a Golden Slam. Only one skater in ANY discipline has one, and it's Yagudin. But Alina does have a Career Golden Slam. The only other lady with a career Golden Slam is Yuna Kim.

A Super Slam includes junior titles. Alina has a Super Slam, as does Yuna.

The "slam" measurement for greatness generally seems unfair to Asian/North American skaters because of the inclusion of 4CCs. 4CCs is less prestigious than Europeans and more difficult to peak at due to it being so close to Worlds. In addition, for many years, some countries did not send their top skaters to 4CCs. For example, Michelle Kwan never competed at 4CCs.

I also see many say that Alina is a GOAT because she the youngest to have completed a "slam" (whichever kind - but it's not a "Grand Slam"). However, being the youngest to accomplish something doesn't make you the greatest. Age is arbitrary when discussing "greatness." Though perhaps the OLDEST person to complete a slam would be worthy of honor, considering how much more difficult skating becomes as you age.

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Well, there can be only pointed out that it is "unofficial title sometimes used by figure skating analysts". And analysts can set it as they like I may not be "figure skating analyst", but I value winning GPF, OGM, WC and EC in two years of senior skating (accompanied by winning JWC and JGPF a season earlier, and also junior and senior national titles) - which means literally everything that matters - higher than as "skating analysts" defined "grand slam"

And that about 4CC? Lilbet, Rika, Kaori, Bradie, Eunsoo Lim etc. had perfect chance. Closer to WC? There was still more than a month after 4CC to WC (more than there was in 2018 between 4CC/Euros to Olympics). It is like saying that you are disadvantaged when you have to peak on two GP events to get to the finals.

Mathman said:

Did I say that? Maybe in the sense that it is difficult to compare skaters of one era with another. But surely not in the sense that Salchow is above everyone else in history.



I don't recall saying anything of the sort. (?)



I don't see how this is relevant to the question of "All-Time Greatest." The athletes of today have advantages that their predecessors did not. Good for them. We should honor their amazing accomplishments. We should also honor the achievements of skating pioneers long past.



Speaking of Salchow, he was the best competitor at the right time in ten World Championships. Does this make him the GOAT?

It seems like our criteria for GOAThood shifts back and forth among many factors. :yes:

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I think we're just misunderstanding each other
I wasn't reading all of your previous responses on this thread, but I saw you say that Ulrich isn't comparable to athletes of today, so I made a conclusion you're making a point that "He could've achieved more had he been in different conditions".
Which I agree with! But I also think although today's athletes have it somewhat easier, they are still achieving more than predecessors and deserve a credit for that.
And the fact that they have it easier is completely natural.
So if someone invents new magical boots/blades or some high-tech fabric, new training equipment and it will make quints possible, which wasn't possible with today's sport tech, I think a person with a quint still should be acknowledged for his achievement, whether or not this technology helped him.

That Usain comment, it wasn't about you saying Usain isn't the greatest. You didn't say that.
It was just an example that he also benefited from innovations (just like skaters), but that shouldn't discount his achievements (hence we should acknowledge achievements of skaters of today).
Athletes of the past absolutely deserve recognition and immense respect and honor. Especially if we consider that 100 years ago no one could afford to be a full-time athlete and had to have a job.
But Usain still achieved a lot in the sport, hence I think he earned his title of being the greatest one for now.


"Ultimately, the sport is about being the best competitor at the right time, at the time of the competition."
This one I just tried to say that although there were athletes, who could do more than Olympic champions, sometimes they failed to demonstrate their abilities in the moment of their competition at Olympics, hence missing out on the title.
Unfortunate things happen to athletes all the time, sometimes it's false/missed start for sprinters that can cause them to be disqualified.
So although there were runners who might have been faster than olympic champions had everyone performed their absolute best, that false start prevented them from showing their best and they lost that title.
Same thing with the example of Jacobellis. And unfortunate mistake right before her finish cost her an Olympic gold, although technically she's won over her competitors previously multiple times, she just slipped at the most important moment and lost to Tanja Frieden.
So are there skaters who are stronger technically than Alina? Yes. But they didn't show their best in the competitions to prevent Alina from grabbing the full collection of titles.
The same way I think Jacobellis was technically stronger than Frieden at the time, but just didn't show that at Olympics, when it mattered.

Autumn Leaves said:

I think Alina has earned her place in history already, not only because of the stamina, transitions and backloading, but because she is the true ballerina on the ice. It is a very rare quality, difficult to achieve, but exceptionally beautiful. I can‘t think of another skater who does ballet so breathtakingly well, with such attention to detail. I know that many people criticize Daniil, but his experience with ballet and Alina‘s rare qualities resulted in exquisite, memorable performances. Correct me if I am wrong, but I can’t think of another lady who manages to transfer ballet on ice. So, despite the short time, I think Alina carved herself a place among the greatest. The fact that she won everything just helps.

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Please. Watch some ballet. She's easily the furthest from being balletic out of all the top ladies competing today.

flanker said:

Well, there can be only pointed out that it is "unofficial title sometimes used by figure skating analysts". And analysts can set it as they like I may not be "figure skating analyst", but I value winning GPF, OGM, WC, and EC in two years of senior skating (accompanied by winning JWC and JGPF a season earlier, and also junior and senior national titles) -which means literally everything that matters - higher than as "skating analysts" defined "grand slam"

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That's fine - everyone can value what they want at whatever value they want. Alina's medals over the course of only 3 years are incredibly impressive! I am only pointing out that people seem to have made up a term to describe Alina's accomplishments, when that term, in fact, describes something different.

Autumn Leaves said:

I think Alina has earned her place in history already, not only because of the stamina, transitions and backloading, but because she is the true ballerina on the ice. It is a very rare quality, difficult to achieve, but exceptionally beautiful. I can‘t think of another skater who does ballet so breathtakingly well, with such attention to detail. I know that many people criticize Daniil, but his experience with ballet and Alina‘s rare qualities resulted in exquisite, memorable performances. Correct me if I am wrong, but I can’t think of another lady who manages to transfer ballet on ice. So, despite the short time, I think Alina carved herself a place among the greatest. The fact that she won everything just helps.

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Alina is a great story teller and has some beautiful lines, there's no denying that, but she is certainly not a ballerina, you can ask any actual ballet dancer.

Autumn Leaves said:

I think Alina has earned her place in history already, not only because of the stamina, transitions and backloading, but because she is the true ballerina on the ice. It is a very rare quality, difficult to achieve, but exceptionally beautiful. I can‘t think of another skater who does ballet so breathtakingly well, with such attention to detail. I know that many people criticize Daniil, but his experience with ballet and Alina‘s rare qualities resulted in exquisite, memorable performances. Correct me if I am wrong, but I can’t think of another lady who manages to transfer ballet on ice. So, despite the short time, I think Alina carved herself a place among the greatest. The fact that she won everything just helps.

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It's almost impossible to be balletic on ice skates but if anyone pulled it off it was someone like Oksana Baiul. Just compare the two skaters at the same age and their is no comparison.

platypus said:

^ There's nothing balletic about Zagitova's skating. That's hardly a knock on her, but to claim that she somehow translates ballet to the ice is false.

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shine said:

Please. Watch some ballet. She's easily the furthest from being balletic out of all the top ladies competing today.

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Ulrica said:

Alina is a great story teller and has some beautiful lines, there's no denying that, but she is certainly not a ballerina, you can ask any actual ballet dancer.

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I personally have to say that I have long since made my peace with fans who say that ice skaters are "balletic." I think this term, in context, just means that the performer moves gracefully and tries to hit some pretty positions.

If you Google "synonyms for balletic" you see entries like "fluid" and "lithe."

Actually, I think the same objection can be made when a skater is described as a good "story teller." Real story telling is an art form (though a dying one), practiced throughout the centuries mainly with respect to ethnic folklore and legend. A master story teller can keep an audience enthralled by his/her voice alone.

I never think during a skating performance, "Wow, look at that triple Lutz -- yes, that's just the way Anna Karenina would do it!"

Or is it more like how Hermione from Harry Potter would do it? I can't tell the difference.

I'm afraid that most of what passes for "story-telling" in figure skating is a few rough pantomimed gestures while making a funny face.

But I am not a story-telling snob, nor a dance critic. It's all good, to me.

andromache said:

I see Alina's "grand slam" referenced here pretty often and I was not aware figure skating had a grand slam, so I googled it. Here is the Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(figure_skating)#Ladies'_singles ...

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Even though this terminology is unofficial as applied to figure skating, this is certainly what "Grand Slam" means in other sports., like golf, tennis, NASCAR auto racing, etc.

Only one golfer in history., Bobby Jones in 1930, is credited with a Grand Slam in golf (the U.S. Amateur counted in those days). Tiger Woods has a "Tiger Slam" -- meaning he held all four major titles simultaneously, but not from the same calendar year.

A Career (Golden) Grand Slam is what Evan Lysacek has, for instance.

I also see many say that Alina is a GOAT because she is the youngest to have completed a "slam" ... However, being the youngest to accomplish something doesn't make you the greatest.

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The advantage in winning a lot when you are young is that now you have a chance to go on to greatness. Michelle Kwan won her first World Championship at 15. So what, you say? So, that gave her plenty of time to win four more before her career was done. :yes:

Sonia Henie was 14 when she won her first world championship. Which is only fair, since she had farther to go -- nine more.

Mathman said:

A Career (Golden) Grand Slam is what Evan Lysacek has, for instance.

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That's interesting, because I don't recall his name coming up much in these conversations, I checked the current Yuzuru thread and in fact he's only mentioned in passing...

So what is it about him that doesn't get the fervent GOAT acclaim that Plushenko, Yagudin, Cranston, Curry, Button, Salchow and yes, our Hanyu collect by the bucketload? I am not having a dig at him, I'm genuinely curious, I don't find him interesting to watch but obviously people - and judges - did....

I am a ballet dancer. Many people are confused as to what the term means. But I think Alina is balletic, as her programs take many movements from the actual ballet, esp. the choreography in Don Quixote, which is how I gained respect for Eteri in the first place as she was the main choreographer IIRC. Her movements are translated and executed well on ice, regarding the balletic movements, at least I think so because I cannot figure skate. Especially in the arms. Obviously you cannot do them as you would in ballet, because the movements done on ice. A charlotte and the common leg grab interpretation of an arabesque, would never be done that way in dance. I found her Kitri to be very musical, and little details like when she does a turn into a leg at altitude are appreciated, because even when she was not on releve, the intention was obvious. Now, what most I think what everyone else means is lyrical; but that is a completely different genre of dance. When people use the term in skating, it's used to describe skaters like Kostner, Kostornaia, Gubanova, etc. Their performances, however, are lyrical ones and have little to do with ballet.

Whether or not Alina is the GOAT, it depends on individual definitions of a GOAT. But I certainly think she is balletic.

colormyworld240 said:

I am a ballet dancer. Many people are confused as to what the term means. But I think Alina is balletic, as her programs take many movements from the actual ballet, esp. the choreography in Don Quixote, which is how I gained respect for Eteri in the first place as she was the main choreographer IIRC. Her movements are translated and executed well on ice, regarding the balletic movements, at least I think so because I cannot figure skate. Especially in the arms. Obviously you cannot do them as you would in ballet, because the movements done on ice. A charlotte and the common leg grab interpretation of an arabesque, would never be done that way in dance. I found her Kitri to be very musical, and little details like when she does a turn into a leg at altitude are appreciated, because even when she was not on releve, the intention was obvious. Now, what most I think what everyone else means is lyrical; but that is a completely different genre of dance. When people use the term in skating, it's used to describe skaters like Kostner, Kostornaia, Gubanova, etc. Their performances, however, are lyrical ones and have little to do with ballet.

Whether or not Alina is the GOAT, it depends on individual definitions of a GOAT. But I certainly think she is balletic.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP9EoSIEBgg

I feel like Alina's the kind of skater that needs medals to be considered GOAT. Nothing she does is anything too special to me. I feel without an OGM, she probably wouldn't be considered.

If they stay long, skaters like Trusova (quads) & Kostornaia probably won't need an OGM to be considered due to having special attributes (a la Mao & Carolina).

Personally I think Yuna comes closest as a special skater with the competitive accolades/luck. Grand Slam, only woman never off the podium, WR streak, should arguably have her second OGM (probably would have if Russian or if her federation had any power) and one of the rare full packages.

Tavi... said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP9EoSIEBgg

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This doesn't say much though. What he did was great and still is. But if Alina skates this way today, she will score half the points.

shine said:

Please. Watch some ballet. She's easily the furthest from being balletic out of all the top ladies competing today.

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I want to find out where do you watch ballet...

Tavi... said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP9EoSIEBgg

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This is not Kitri. A large part of ballet is also the character.

blargmonster said:

I feel like Alina's the kind of skater that needs medals to be considered GOAT. Nothing she does is anything too special to me. I feel without an OGM, she probably wouldn't be considered.

If they stay long, skaters like Trusova (quads) & Kostornaia probably won't need an OGM to be considered due to having special attributes (a la Mao & Carolina).

Personally I think Yuna comes closest as a special skater with the competitive accolades/luck. Grand Slam, only woman never off the podium, WR streak, should arguably have her second OGM (probably would have if Russian or if her federation had any power) and one of the rare full packages.

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This.

Mathman said:

A Career (Golden) Grand Slam is what Evan Lysacek has, for instance.

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TallyT said:

That's interesting, because I don't recall his name coming up much in these conversations, I checked the current Yuzuru thread and in fact he's only mentioned in passing...

So what is it about him that doesn't get the fervent GOAT acclaim that Plushenko, Yagudin, Cranston Curry, Button, Salchow and yes, our Hanyu collect by the bucketload? I am not having a dig at him, I'm genuinely curious, I don't find him interesting to watch but obviously people - and judges - did....

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I guess Evan is the prime example of you can get the grand slam but if you don't also have famous memorable programs people keep re-watching and/or were innovative (e.g. inventor of certain jumps, spins etc), people won't remember you much in 10 years time. He is now mainly remembered for...winning without a quad.

Unlike Lysacek Zagitova had an innovation (though not well received by everyone) and delivered the hardest technical program. She will be at least remembered for the fully backloaded program and the Zagitova rule.
She's not a total forgettable skater like Lysacek

yume said:

Unlike Lysacek Zagitova had an innovation (though not well received by everyone) and had the hardest technical program. She will be remembered for the fully backloaded program and the Zagitova rule.

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And lutz loop! (Not an innovation, but it became her staple/signature combo)

yume said:

Unlike Lysacek Zagitova had an innovation (though not well received by everyone) and delivered the hardest technical program. She will be at least remembered for the fully backloaded program and the Zagitova rule.
She's not a total forgettable skater like Lysacek

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She's also a more charismatic skater than him, even at the age of 15 to his 24 when they each won.