Alina Zagitova, the Greatest? | Page 18 | Golden Skate

Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This is not Kitri. A large part of ballet is also the character.

I do not understand this comment. Curry is not performing the Don Quixote ballet. He is presenting a figure skating program that demonstrates that it is possible to include balletic influences in a skating routine.

This program is regarded as unique in all of figure skating history in this regard. Posture and carriage alone are enough to disqualify all other pastisches that we see from time to time in competitive figure skating. They are, in fact, more like parodies.

This doesn't say much though. What he did was great and still is. But if Alina skates this way today, she will score half the points.

I have never understood the point of wanting to score old masterpieces by IJS criteria. Unless it is to point out the failure of the IJS.

Great program = half the points. Mediocre program = lots of points. Isn't this a condemnation of the point system?
 
Last edited:

Reddi

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2018
Please. Watch some ballet. She's easily the furthest from being balletic out of all the top ladies competing today.

As a person who watched a lot of ballet I can say that Alina is balletic in the sense that she cites balletic movements and performance structure in her programs. You watch her and recognise the artistic approach immediately. Of course, that doesn't mean you can call her THE ballerina (her or anyone else in figure skating ever in any discipline or era, seriously).
But no matter how directly you read the word "balletic", there's no way Alina can possibly be the furthest from it than any top lady, many of whom haven't made any steps in this particular direction. Ballet has a very well-formulated aesthetic code, you know, you can't evoke it simply by being generally pretty on the ice
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
I have never understood the point of wanting to score old masterpieces by IJS criteria. Unless it is to point out the failure of the IJS.

Great program = half the points. Mediocre program = lots of points. Isn't this a condemnation of the point system?

That was not my intention. And the IJS might be a failure in a sense, yes why not.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think that Lysacek's situation is actually pretty easy to understand. He won an Olympic gold medal and some other titles. but he is not one of the all-time great skaters in history. Why not? Well, he just isn't. After all, an Olympic gold medal is given out every four years rain or shine, whether anyone skates well or not.

Lysacek was not exceptional technically. No quad (at least, not one that was reliable enough to include in his Olympic pregram). Plus a weak triple Axel that looked more like a Salchow.

He also had a bland personality both on and off the ice. He did his best to project energy and passion in his skating, but at the end of the day his programs seemed workmanlike rather than inspired. (This is not really a knock on Evan -- you go with what you got. If no one else wants the gold medal, it's yours).

I also think that people projected onto Evan the dissatisfaction that they felt with the judging system. How can Lysacek, with nothing much, beat Plushenko, who really was one of the all-time greats and who had an impressive (for the time) jump arsenal and a commanding on-ice presence. There must be something wrong with the judging system, with it's three hundreds of a point here and its four hundredths there, for such a thing to be possible.

It's like when people criticized skaters such as Jeff Buttle and Patrick Chan for realizing that the version of the IJS that they stated under gave big rewards for choreographed falls. Fall on a quad, win the gold medal. Many fans thought the IJS had a problem, and they took out their frustration on the skaters. An athlete wants to give the impression that he really is the best, not just that he/she is a sneaky Pete who figured out a way to game the system.
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
I think that Lysacek's situation is actually pretty easy to understand. He won an Olympic gold medal and some other titles. but he is not one of the all-time great skaters in history. Why not? Well, he just isn't. After all, an Olympic gold medal is given out every four years rain or shine, whether anyone skates well or not.

Lysacek was not exceptional technically. No quad (at least, not one that was reliable enough to include in his Olympic pregram). Plus a weak triple Axel that looked more like a Salchow.

He also had a bland personality both on and off the ice. He did his best to project energy and passion in his skating, but at the end of the day his programs seemed workmanlike rather than inspired. (This is not really a knock on Evan -- you go with what you got. If no one else wants the gold medal, it's yours).

I also think that people projected onto Evan the dissatisfaction that they felt with the judging system. How can Lysacek, with nothing much, beat Plushenko, who really was one of the all-time greats and who had an impressive (for the time) jump arsenal and a commanding on-ice presence. There must be something wrong with the judging system, with it's three hundreds of a point here and its four hundredths there, for such a thing to be possible.

It's like when people criticized skaters such as Jeff Buttle and Patrick Chan for realizing that the version of the IJS that they stated under gave big rewards for choreographed falls. Fall on a quad, win the gold medal. Many fans thought the IJS had a problem, and they took out their frustration on the skaters. An athlete wants to give the impression that he really is the best, not just that he/she is a sneaky Pete who figured out a way to game the system.

I agree that Lysacek is seen as an acceptable target, probably one of the most acceptable. Sarah Hughes doesn't get nearly as much. I have similar opinions to you about him. It does seem harder, though, to have these discussions about energy/passion and workmanlike programs these days because there's much more diversity in approaches to the sport and a lot of defensiveness among fans.

I don't think there's any shame in trying to excel in the system. It's learnable and skaters shouldn't be blamed for the hacks that the ISU allows by design. However, that doesn't absolve anyone from being criticized if the skating and programs are not good.
 

colormyworld240

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
I do not understand this comment. Curry is not performing the Don Quixote ballet. He is presenting a figure skating program that demonstrates that it is possible to include balletic influences in a skating routine.

This program is regarded as unique in all of figure skating history in this regard. Posture and carriage alone are enough to disqualify all other pastisches that we see from time to time in competitive figure skating. They are, in fact, more like parodies.


Performing a ballet (and giving an interpretation on ice) depends on the part. In ballet, it is not just a collection of graceful movements. When you say demonstrating a program that includes balletic influences, that is the the major issue with the misunderstanding. Curry's program does have balletic movements but these movements are also specific to a character in a ballet. Regarding his posture and carriage, it is beautiful. But that alone does not make it balletic; that is just posture and carriage (though that performance of DQ was very balletic).

But when you're trying to put Kitri on ice, you have to understand Kitri's choreography, not the common terms of "balletic movements with great posture and carriage" because blanket terms do not exist. Yes, of course are in ballet, but that's not what makes it balletic. I guess what I'm trying to say is ballet is very specific? It's difficult for me to put into words what I mean. I thought Alina did well in Kitri because Kitri is energetic, vivacious, with sharp and quick movements with many details that reference the character in the ballet. She is charming and charismatic in her program, with subtle expressions that vary with the structure and choreography, much like Kitri. I found the choreography to also be extremely well done. That does not mean she can do ALL ballets because we have to acknowledge that there are many different styles within ballet itself; perhaps she can or she can't, but in Kitri she is balletic. In their version of Swan Lake, there is not much ballet especially with the Moonlight piece in the middle and the "modern" choreography. So it's difficult to tell if she can be a balletic swan - we have yet to see that.

I hope this helps explain what balletic means and why I think Alina is balletic from a dancer's POV. And why I think the term is confused with graceful/elegant, or lyrical.
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
This is not Kitri. A large part of ballet is also the character.

You know, you’re not the only person here who has ever set foot on a stage. For the record, I never said it was Kitri, or that character is unimportant - nor have I said whether I think Alina’s skating is or isn’t balletic.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I don't think there's any shame in trying to excel in the system. It's learnable and skaters shouldn't be blamed for the hacks that the ISU allows by design. However, that doesn't absolve anyone from being criticized if the skating and programs are not good.

I will say that one good thing with the current system is that it allows women skaters to break out of the "pretty princess" mold we saw a lot of under 6.0. There isn't an ideal for earning high "artistry" marks anymore; if your program has good content, you can succeed with almost any type of style. I think we do see fewer enjoyable programs now, but there is a lot more variety in winning programs which is refreshing.
 

Autumn Leaves

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
I thought that this balletic argument was over months ago.

I brought it back as an argument for Alina‘s uniqueness and place in history. And was told to watch some ballet, while Alina was qualified as the „least balletic“ from the top ladies.

Colormyworld, Reddi, thank you so much for defending this argument, because it is a pity when the wonderful work of Alina and her choreographer is arrogantly dismissed.
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
You know, you’re not the only person here who has ever set foot on a stage. For the record, I never said it was Kitri, or that character is unimportant - nor have I said whether I think Alina’s skating is or isn’t balletic.

But you posted just a video, so you left much space for interpretation of your move. Especially considering that you quote something that was telling about balletic in the beginning and the Kitri character at the end.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
I will say that one good thing with the current system is that it allows women skaters to break out of the "pretty princess" mold we saw a lot of under 6.0. There isn't an ideal for earning high "artistry" marks anymore; if your program has good content, you can succeed with almost any type of style. I think we do see fewer enjoyable programs now, but there is a lot more variety in winning programs which is refreshing.

I hope against hope that we don't see Trusova in a unitard performing programs like last year. I didn't understand her PCS at all, and I love her.
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
I will say that one good thing with the current system is that it allows women skaters to break out of the "pretty princess" mold we saw a lot of under 6.0. There isn't an ideal for earning high "artistry" marks anymore; if your program has good content, you can succeed with almost any type of style. I think we do see fewer enjoyable programs now, but there is a lot more variety in winning programs which is refreshing.

I agree so wholeheartedly with this. I think there's a lot of rose-colored glasses lookbacks at the 6.0 era for ladies. Personally, I like seeing the variety of aesthetics of programs from Daniil, Lori, Benoit, Misha, Jeff, Tom D, Shae-Lynn, David etc. next to each other in competitions. It's just that the ideas aren't always coherently and cohesively put together or connected to by the skater. The choreographers are also producing so much work for so many skaters per season, and that can lead to diminishing quality too. I would take the variety today easily, although there could always be more. But sometimes, it does seem like the programs from the previous era had a clearer and more cohesive artistic vision that skaters could successfully communicate on the ice.
 

ruga

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
I hope against hope that we don't see Trusova in a unitard performing programs like last year. I didn't understand her PCS at all, and I love her.

Well, while she doesn't always look very into her performance and disconnects sometimes, one has to admit that her skating skills are pretty good and she has some nice transitions. Also, I'd say that she feels the music pretty well and hits the accents, despite mistakes and layout changes.
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
But you posted just a video, so you left much space for interpretation of your move. Especially considering that you quote something that was telling about balletic in the beginning and the Kitri character at the end.

IMO it’s best to ask questions rather than making assumptions.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I brought it back as an argument for Alina‘s uniqueness and place in history. And was told to watch some ballet, while Alina was qualified as the „least balletic“ from the top ladies.

Colormyworld, Reddi, thank you so much for defending this argument, because it is a pity when the wonderful work of Alina and her choreographer is arrogantly dismissed.

That discussion had a whole thread. I understand why you talked about this. But given how furiously many posters said that she's not balletic, this was not a good idea.

I hope it will be over soon. We should talk about greatness and greatness has many criteria.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
I brought it back as an argument for Alina‘s uniqueness and place in history. And was told to watch some ballet, while Alina was qualified as the „least balletic“ from the top ladies.

Colormyworld, Reddi, thank you so much for defending this argument, because it is a pity when the wonderful work of Alina and her choreographer is arrogantly dismissed.

You know that people can criticize a skater + choreography without being "arrogant," right?

I think Alina is very graceful overall, with beautiful use of limbs (that would be more effective if she would hold a pose for longer, IMO) but her carriage/posture leave too much to be desired for me to call her "balletic." There are far less balletic skaters than Alina - such as Liza Tukt, for example - but that doesn't make Alina a ballerina by comparison.

I can't think of any current skaters who are especially balletic, honestly, though maybe the closest would be Satoko Miyahara for her posture/carriage, line, and attention to detail/musicality in choreography. I could envision her doing a "ballet" program rather well.

Alina is still great. But her posture/carriage prevent her from being balletic in my opinion. That doesn't make me arrogant. :rolleye:
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
IMO it’s best to ask questions rather than making assumptions.

It's not a productive way to reply though. We can all send videos, photos... and then "complain" that we didn't mean what was assumed.
What is better is open to discussion, I don't get it as a fact for the moment...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top