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I think it was a great idea. And the fact that someone doesn't understand something shouldn't prevent people from writing the truth.
Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?
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I think it was a great idea. And the fact that someone doesn't understand something shouldn't prevent people from writing the truth.
Ok.
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Interestingly, the margin of victory between Lysacek and Plushenko was that Lysacek backloaded 5 jumping passes (including his hardest element, the 3A combo). Plushenko had only 3 jumping passes in the second half, all easy ones.
I thought so, too. Somewhere around the time that we all came to agreement about whether Kim should have won over Sotnikova at Sochi.
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I did not think Tavi... was asserting that somebody was not balletic - on the contrary, I thought he was asserting that someone was balletic, by posting a video of that person.
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I don't think Lysacek is totally forgettable, but also something tells me that in 20 years people will remember only Alina's programs from the 2018 Olympics. Even the fans of other ladies.
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I haven't asked Tavi so I don't know what he/she was asserting.
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I don't think someone's opinion is the same as "the truth." Which rarely exists re: the subjective aspects of figure skating.
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You know what? I take back anything bad I said about Lysacek. He put everything he had into his Olympic performance and came away with the big prize. You can't do anything more than that.
Sarah Hughes, too. In the grand sweep of figure skating history she was not as accomplished a skater as Sonja Henie or katarina Witt. She was not as accomplished a skater as Michelle Kwan or irina Slutskaya, who dominated that era of ladies' skating. But when the chips were down she "got on the good foot" (to quote soul man James Brown) on a day when her rivals didn't. Brava!
I agree 100% with both of those points.
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I promise that I am not intending to derail this thread
, but I have to disagree on Sarah Hughes. Whereas I think the scoring made sense for Evan versus Plushenko (thanks IJS), I think Irina was kinda done dirty by the SP scoring. Sarah certainly got off to the wrong foot in her SP, and probably should've been in 5th or 6th after the SP. Whereas Irina probably should've been in 1st. There's no question that Sarah outdid everyone in the LP, however, IMO. It's similar to the ladies' event in Sochi - the home crowd really mattered. If the 2002 Olympics were not in the US, it is likely that Irina would've been in first after the SP, and the gold would've been hers if the LP played out the same.
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Won't be as long as any of the girls wear tutus {shudder} and the younger they get, the more likely it is some will.
I very much doubt it. There will still be people who love others a lot more than Alina (and shall we point out how very very close the win was? A couple of points and we'd probably be seeing the argument with a different name). And even apart from the programs themselves, sporting immortality doesn't actually NEED GOAT status: look at the Lillyhammer ladies videos online. On my favourite channel of old programs in HD, Tonya (not surprisingly) has way more views than the rest, followed by Nancy, followed by the only unquestioned candidate GOAT Katerina... and then the winner Oksana.
Me, I think Evgenia will probably be watched as much if not more because of the heightened emotional impact of the fairy tale she reached for and didn't get. She makes people cry and that may not be part of being a GOAT but it never gets old or out of style. But then, being watched and loved long after you're gone from the stage doesn't always have to do with your medals or your championship status.
Alina may be the only one there who is spoken of AS a possible GOAT... or none of them may. That is something else entirely.
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Thank you for posting this link, how sublime, how elegant, exquisitely holding the movements, the carriage, the posture. The very essence of ballet on ice.
some thoughts from ballet dancers regarding John Curry:
John Curry: skating on the edge of ballet (1978 Washington Post)
"Dance choreographers have tended to watch me, and a lot have asked to meet me," said Curry. "When I met Kenneth MacMillan (of London's Royal Ballet), before he said anything he said, 'I want to do a piece for you,' which is just what I wanted to hear."
What attracts the dance choreographers, said Curry, is "the magical quality of skating that they can't get in dance - the extension of movement, the sustained quality - just what every dancer strives for."
And I loved this part:
Curry says some other skaters find what he is doing a little threatening. "It doesn't only depend on triple jumps. It depends on artistry, on the quality of the movement. Skating got to the point where the jump was the most important thing, the most difficult thing and the most valuable thing," he said. "What I do emphasizes the real artistic quality of skating, glide, form, style, musicality and carriage."
A review of Curry's show from the NY Times Dance Critic:
John Curry's Dance on Ice pioneers skating as an art
and the final quote:
When Sarah Bernhardt first saw Nijinsky and other ballet dancers from Diaghilev's company, she shouted out, ''They jump, they jump.'' Seeing Mr. Curry's skaters in ''Glide,'' we might exclaim, ''They float, they float,'' and share the same sense of wonder.
Google ballet and John Curry. The examples are endless. Even as a competitive skater, it is difficult to imagine one who incorporated ballet more into his skating and who received the accolades of those who danced professionally.
And we can say that more than 40 years later, he was truly one of the GOATs.
even if he beat my beloved Toller.We cannot say that about anyone skating today. We just don't know.
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After some pages of bickering and people declaring they know best, I'm still convinced Alina IS A BALLETIC FIGURE SKATER!
Who is bickering?
I know what I think too, and that’s my opinion, just like yours is your opinion. But no one else has declared they know best any more than you have, as far as I can tell. (Well, I guess if someone said their opinion was an absolute fact....)
That’s why we’re here
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You know that people can criticize a skater + choreography without being "arrogant," right?
I think Alina is very graceful overall, with beautiful use of limbs (that would be more effective if she would hold a pose for longer, IMO) but her carriage/posture leave too much to be desired for me to call her "balletic." There are far less balletic skaters than Alina - such as Liza Tukt, for example - but that doesn't make Alina a ballerina by comparison.
I can't think of any current skaters who are especially balletic, honestly, though maybe the closest would be Satoko Miyahara for her posture/carriage, line, and attention to detail/musicality in choreography. I could envision her doing a "ballet" program rather well.
Alina is still great. But her posture/carriage prevent her from being balletic in my opinion. That doesn't make me arrogant.
I think one poster already explained what balletic suppose to mean in this constellation. And it is to do movements from some ballet on the ice. You can pose as balletic dancer, or have balletic posture and carriage but that dont make you capable to do movements from some exact ballet on the ice. So, even if Alina may not look as a ballet dancer to some of you, she is still capable of translating ballet movements and story from the ballet to the ice. I think that was his/her main point. I mean, its not like ice dancers who are skating to tango rhythm dance, doing that like profesional tango dancers.
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I think you have stated the question rather than given a definitive answer. Poster Colormyworld240 presented that point of view about what "balletic" is "supposed to mean," and argued persuasively for this opinion.
But it is not shared by everyone even so. I, for one, think it is possible to give a (properly termed) "balletic" performance by incorporating movements and postures that people associate with ballet dancing, yet not be attempting to perform a particular role from a particular opus.
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I have to agree, even if one accepts that Alina or anyone else is "capable of translating ballet movements and story from the ballet to the ice", that does not mean that everyone has to accept that she or anyone else does it well just because she does it. 'Balletic', as a compliment, does have to mean a high level of beauty and achievement, and it is clear that opinions on THAT point are... mixed, shall we say?
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Except I didn’t complain, I just stated facts and an opinion.
As to Alina, I just rewatched her Carmen FS at Worlds. While I’m glad she’s recovered her competitive confidence after a very tough season, for me that performance is a perfect example of why “winning everything,” without more, doesn't equate to being “the greatest of all time.”
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For me, I don't put that kind of expectation on our young athetes. It would be unreasonable to require an ice skater to do a ballet move with the finesse of a professional dancer.
Skater:
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress....ins-gold-olympics-2018-internet-reactions.jpg
Dancer:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...tte,_Kitri_-_Prix_de_Lausanne_2010-7_edit.jpg
On the other hand, I would not expect a ballerina to be able to do a triple Lutz / triple loop combo. It all evens out.
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That's how I've generally thought the word to mean as well, at least in skating context. Performing to ballet music or even borrowing poses or moves from ballet doesn't make one "balletic". Plushenko did a whole program as a tribute to Nijinsky and even called it so, but I find his movement as un-balletic as it can be. OTOH Miyahara hasn't skated to any ballet music, but her ballet / dance training can easily be seen in the way she moves, holds herself and uses her arms etc.
Let’s not use the word “balletic” then, since according to some of you, calling someone "balletic" is hardly a complement if all it means is that the person is able to translate movement from ballet onto to the ice - it's merely a neutral statement of fact. And let me rephrase my statement: Alina is the furthest from being graceful or showing an understanding of movement of all the top ladies competing today.
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