Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

colormyworld240 · Jul 11, 2019

Tavi... said:
You know, you’re not the only person here who has ever set foot on a stage. For the record, I never said it was Kitri, or that character is unimportant - nor have I said whether I think Alina’s skating is or isn’t balletic.

And I never said you did? What I was trying to say was that Curry's performance, while balletic, cannot really be used to determine whether or not Alina is balletic as they are incomparable. That was the topic of discussion of my original post that you responded to.

I also didn't say that I am the only person who has ever set foot on a stage. I said I'm giving my POV as a dancer - not that I am the only dancer. I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from.

Anyway, my contribution is that I don't think we can say Alina is the GOAT, as there are so many opinions and definitions. But for me, she is definitely one of the great skaters and I have great respect for her diligence, humbleness, and what I believe was a beautiful interpretation of one of my favourite roles of Kitri at the Olympics. Especially when you look at how she skated prior to 2014 with her technical limitations to performing one of the most difficult programs a few years later. And her interviews in overcoming personal challenges at a young age. Those are qualities that illustrate her greatness, much more than any number of medals.

zounger · Jul 11, 2019

Tavi... said:
Except I didn’t complain, I just stated facts and an opinion.

As to Alina, I just rewatched her Carmen FS at Worlds. While I’m glad she’s recovered her competitive confidence after a very tough season, for me that performance is a perfect example of why “winning everything,” without more, doesn't equate to being “the greatest of all time.”

The word was in quotes for a reason. I don't see any example either. As for the actual topic, my opinion on the matter was expressed earlier

zounger said:
She is on the way and as Cavafy would have said, the journey is what matters.

voolfee · Jul 11, 2019

Mathman said:
For me, I don't put that kind of expectation on our young athetes. It would be unreasonable to require an ice skater to do a ballet move with the finesse of a professional dancer.

Skater:

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress....ins-gold-olympics-2018-internet-reactions.jpg

Dancer:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...tte,_Kitri_-_Prix_de_Lausanne_2010-7_edit.jpg

On the other hand, I would not expect a ballerina to be able to do a triple Lutz / triple loop combo. It all evens out.

I don’t think that it’s right to compare ballet elements on ice and on the floor. Especially comparing with the unsuccessful photo from the skater. How about these photos:
https://ss.metronews.ru/userfiles/materials/114/1145120/858x540.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5wUF1sXkAYF3Wx.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/80/f9/be/80f9be810ede5011d9fa2422a45c7e96.jpg
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-01/21/136912222_15164995075941n.jpg
https://s.abcnews.com/images/Sports/36-final-best-olympics-epa-jrl-180223_11x7_1600.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/65/c9/dc/65c9dc2d309e5b38dfe7ab5e74b85bc1.jpg
http://image.xportsnews.com/contents/images/upload/article/2018/0223/1519362102573589.jpg

TallyT · Jul 11, 2019

voolfee said:
I don’t think that it’s right to compare ballet elements on ice and on the floor. Especially comparing with the unsuccessful photo from the skater. How about these photos:
https://ss.metronews.ru/userfiles/materials/114/1145120/858x540.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5wUF1sXkAYF3Wx.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/80/f9/be/80f9be810ede5011d9fa2422a45c7e96.jpg
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-01/21/136912222_15164995075941n.jpg
https://s.abcnews.com/images/Sports/36-final-best-olympics-epa-jrl-180223_11x7_1600.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/65/c9/dc/65c9dc2d309e5b38dfe7ab5e74b85bc1.jpg
http://image.xportsnews.com/contents/images/upload/article/2018/0223/1519362102573589.jpg

I'm confused. But I take it those photos are meant to show how not balletic she is?

voolfee · Jul 11, 2019

TallyT said:
I'm confused. But I take it those photos are meant to show how not balletic she is?

Very very funny. :palmf:

yume · Jul 11, 2019

blargmonster said:
Personally I think Yuna comes closest as a special skater with the competitive accolades/luck. Grand Slam, only woman never off the podium, WR streak, should arguably have her second OGM (probably would have if Russian or if her federation had any power) and one of the rare full packages.

Full package is an interesting concept.
Usually, i see that skaters who don't have the full set of triples or the usual 5 triples like Yuna or who have problematic jumps like Satoko, considered as full package. Because obviously they are strong artistically.
On the contrary, strong jumpers who have work to do on the artistic mark are not considered as full packages. And unfortunately i see sometimes that those who have a lot of work to do on that side are treated like they don't deserve to be on any podium or qualify for big competitions. While there is no problem with those who have a lot to do on jumps but are strong artistically (i think i will never forget last year GP France men free skate commentaries).

Personnally, though i appreciate beautiful choreography and execution, i think that jumps, all jumps are necessary to be called a full package.
Her jumps were beautiful but the fact that Yuna had 4 triples during most of her senior career doesn't convince me. Yeah she dropped 3lo because of injury, but she had no control on that jump anyway. Rarely landing it with positive GOE since her junior days. She had issues with edge jumps in general, salchow was not her friend. Imo, she was doing well (sometimes very well) what she knew to do.

In ideal world, my full package for ladies has at least the 6 triples with correct edges and no chronic UR issues, good spins. With a good artistic potential. Rika Kihira comes close to that. Her NHK free skate is the epitome of full package imo.
Now, as just a few can achieve the 3A, skaters with 5 triples that come close are Alena Kostornaya (despite the flat edge on lutz), Mai Mihara (despite uninspiring programs).

TallyT · Jul 11, 2019

voolfee said:
Very very funny.

I wasn't joking. I'm getting confused about who is on which side here and the pictures are unfortunate if you are claiming she does ballet movements brilliantly. From what FAoI however, I thought her modern dance skills probably aren't bad at all.

Reddi · Jul 11, 2019

TallyT said:
I wasn't joking. I'm getting confused about who is on which side here and the pictures are unfortunate if you are claiming she does ballet movements brilliantly. From what FAoI however, I thought her modern dance skills probably aren't bad at all.

She does ballet movements very nice for a skater. I have no idea why are you guys expecting an athlete to resemble an actual ballet dancer considering that skaters and dancers are a dozen years of very different training apart. Pictures show that she has arms that are good enough for a skater, she's flexible enough for a skater, extends her foot enough for a skater... etc. Oh, and she also put an effort to actually learn and perform ballet movements within her program. Like whom would you nominate for a better representative of a ballet style of choreography right now?

Right now I see the word "balletic" being thrown at everybody who has a nice enough posture and body lines. Those are universal features that any dancer of any style has. Having them doesn't automatically make anybody a balletic skater. Cause as I (and sever others ballet lovers) already said: "ballet" isn't some vague umbrella term for a "beautiful" or "delicate" or "nice". It's specific as hell. That's why, as colormyworld240 pointed out, Don Quixote is unmistakably balletic program while Black Swan is not. I would also argue that Carmen is a balletic program by design. It leans on a Plisetskaya-Shedrin-Alonso Carmen Suite a lot. Like, a lot a lot. Anyone who's familiar with the piece will recognise the influence on the spot.

Baron Vladimir · Jul 11, 2019

Mathman said:
I think you have stated the question rather than given a definitive answer. Poster Colormyworld240 presented that point of view about what "balletic" is "supposed to mean," and argued persuasively for this opinion.

But it is not shared by everyone even so. I, for one, think it is possible to give a (properly termed) "balletic" performance by incorporating movements and postures that people associate with ballet dancing, yet not be attempting to perform a particular role from a particular opus.

I really don't see what's there to argue with. Poster explained why is possible to call Alina 'balletic'. I'm pretty sure all people are aware that Alina is a figure skater, and not a ballet dancer. And what epiteths people relate to word 'balletic' is highly personal. But if we use that narrow definition some people are using then we should never call a ballet dancer who performs Black Swan character 'balletic', because there is nothing elegant and delicate in that performance, nor her character asks for that kind of interpretation. Being frantic and in constant motion (not holding a position) is also a type of balletic performance.

Tavi... · Jul 11, 2019

colormyworld240 said:
And I never said you did? What I was trying to say was that Curry's performance, while balletic, cannot really be used to determine whether or not Alina is balletic as they are incomparable. That was the topic of discussion of my original post that you responded to.

I also didn't say that I am the only person who has ever set foot on a stage. I said I'm giving my POV as a dancer - not that I am the only dancer. I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from.

Anyway, my contribution is that I don't think we can say Alina is the GOAT, as there are so many opinions and definitions. But for me, she is definitely one of the great skaters and I have great respect for her diligence, humbleness, and what I believe was a beautiful interpretation of one of my favourite roles of Kitri at the Olympics. Especially when you look at how she skated prior to 2014 with her technical limitations to performing one of the most difficult programs a few years later. And her interviews in overcoming personal challenges at a young age. Those are qualities that illustrate her greatness, much more than any number of medals.

Thank you for clarifying. I also like Alina’s humbleness and diligence, respect her for overcoming personal challenges, and agree that she gave a great performance at the Olympics. But for me, greatness implies more than that. What Alina may become in the future is anybody’s guess, but at the moment, she doesn’t have the body of work or artistic point of view that conveys greatness to me.

theharleyquinn · Jul 11, 2019

yume said:
Full package is an interesting concept.
Usually, i see that skaters who don't have the full set of triples or the usual 5 triples like Yuna or who have problematic jumps like Satoko, considered as full package. Because obviously they are strong artistically.
On the contrary, strong jumpers who have work to do on the artistic mark are not considered as full packages. And unfortunately i see sometimes that those who have a lot of work to do on that side are treated like they don't deserve to be on any podium or qualify for big competitions. While there is no problem with those who have a lot to do on jumps but are strong artistically (i think i will never forget last year GP France men free skate commentaries).

Personnally, though i appreciate beautiful choreography and execution, i think that jumps, all jumps are necessary to be called a full package.
Her jumps were beautiful but the fact that Yuna had 4 triples during most of her senior career doesn't convince me. Yeah she dropped 3lo because of injury, but she had no control on that jump anyway. Rarely landing it with positive GOE since her junior days. She had issues with edge jumps in general, salchow was not her friend. Imo, she was doing well (sometimes very well) what she knew to do.

In ideal world, my full package for ladies has at least the 6 triples with correct edges and no chronic UR issues, good spins. With a good artistic potential. Rika Kihira comes close to that. Her NHK free skate is the epitome of full package imo.
Now, as just a few can achieve the 3A, skaters with 5 triples that come close are Alena Kostornaya (despite the flat edge on lutz), Mai Mihara (despite uninspiring programs).

We need to see Rika and Alena with more programs first. They are still early in their careers. Otherwise, I would agree right away. I can't say I see Satoko brought up in full package conversations. Her jump issues are way too severe for that.

However, the Yuna criticism about the 3Lo feels like it's retroactively moving the goalpost. I wouldn't characterize her as having a lot to do on jumps for the era she was in (and certainly wouldn't group her with Satoko). If Yuna was skating today, she would've had to practice more if not all of the triples because the era calls for it. I wouldn't not call Michelle Kwan the full package because she didn't have all triples.

Actually from your characterization it seems like it would be sufficient to just be "good enough" at artistry so long as you have mastery of all of the triples. That doesn't feel rigorous enough from the artistic side.

I agree that one skate can showcase the full package though (Rika FS at NHK, Alena SP at GPF, Yuna SP at 2009 Worlds). Calling the skater the full package requires some longevity to suggest it wasn't just the stars aligning on one program. In fact, that's how I feel about Alina's Don Quixote.

Mathman · Jul 11, 2019

voolfee said:
I don’t think that it’s right to compare ballet elements on ice and on the floor.

Thank you. That was exactly the point I was trying to make.

We cannot expect an ice skater to do ballet as well as a ballet dancer. We cannot expect a skater to jump as high as a pole vaulter. We cannot expect a figure skater to skate as fast as a speed skater.

This does not stop us from asking, is this skater graceful in her movements? Does she jump high? Does she skate fast?

Mathman · Jul 11, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
I really don't see what's there to argue with. Poster explained why is possible to call Alina 'balletic'. I'm pretty sure all people are aware that Alina is a figure skater, and not a ballet dancer. And what epiteths people relate to word 'balletic' is highly personal.

But if we use that narrow definition some people are using then we should never call a ballet dancer who performs Black Swan character 'balletic', because there is nothing elegant and delicate in that performance, nor her character asks for that kind of interpretation. Being frantic and in constant motion (not holding a position) is also a type of balletic performance.

My interest was not so much in judging whether Alina's ballet-themed programs are praiseworthy or not in the execution. I was more thinking about what the term "balletic" means. To me, it means, "you know, like what ballet dancers do."

Show anyone this picture and ask, what is this person doing?

https://fesapusewebsite.blob.core.w...000x1480-dad1ed160d2f0785c55b80cb11d14d66.jpg

The answer would be, "ballet." Why? Because this is the kind of thing that ballet dancers do. What role is she playing? Dunno, but she is being balletic as all get-out.

As for Black Swans, even while presenting energetic and forceful choreography, they still move with exquisite grace and astonishing muscular control. Why? Because that's what ballet dancers do.

Mathman · Jul 11, 2019

This is my favorite example of how figure skating can be influenced by dance.

Sasha Cohen's renowned split jump.

http://gofigureskating.com/img/compare/Sasha_Cohen_Split_Jump.jpg

Wonderful! Simply the best! 6.0! 6.0! 6.0!

Yet I can hear dance instructors all around the world shouting in unison, "Sasha, your feet! Your feet!"

Baron Vladimir · Jul 11, 2019

Mathman said:
My interest was not so much in judging whether Alina's ballet-themed programs are praiseworthy or not in the execution. I was more thinking about what the term "balletic" means. To me, it means, "you know, like what ballet dancers do."

Show anyone this picture and ask, what is this person doing?

https://fesapusewebsite.blob.core.w...000x1480-dad1ed160d2f0785c55b80cb11d14d66.jpg

The answer would be, "ballet." Why? Because this is the kind of thing that ballet dancers do. What role is she playing? Dunno, but she is being balletic as all get-out.

As for Black Swans, even while presenting energetic and forceful choreography, they still move with exquisite grace and astonishing muscular control. Why? Because that's what ballet dancers do.

And did you see any figure skater achieving that same position while being on skates? I'm pretty sure you can find a picture where Alina's hands and legs extension is practically the same as in that photo. Or the closest you can get in any of todays programs. Just google it

Mathman · Jul 11, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
I'm pretty sure you can find a picture when Alina's hands and legs extension is practically the same as in that photo.

Well, if so then she is presenting a balletic pose. (?)

We seem to be discussing different questions here.

yume · Jul 11, 2019

theharleyquinn said:
We need to see Rika and Alena with more programs first. They are still early in their careers.
Otherwise, I would agree right away. I can't say I see Satoko brought up in full package conversations. Her jump issues are way too severe for that.

However, the Yuna criticism about the 3Lo feels like it's retroactively moving the goalpost. I wouldn't characterize her as having a lot to do on jumps for the era she was in (and certainly wouldn't group her with Satoko). If Yuna was skating today, she would've had to practice more if not all of the triples because the era calls for it. I wouldn't not call Michelle Kwan the full package because she didn't have all triples.

Actually from your characterization it seems like it would be sufficient to just be "good enough" at artistry so long as you have mastery of all of the triples. That doesn't feel rigorous enough from the artistic side.

I agree that one skate can showcase the full package though (Rika FS at NHK, Alena SP at GPF, Yuna SP at 2009 Worlds). Calling the skater the full package requires some longevity to suggest it wasn't just the stars aligning on one program. In fact, that's how I feel about Alina's Don Quixote.

That's why i said they come close. Not that they have full package.

Maybe the fact that i talked about skaters who have to work a lot on jumps after made you think that, but i didn't put Yuna in that category. What she was doing in that era was perfectly fine. More than perfectly fine even since she always managed to finish on podium or even first place with skates that had many mistakes.

theharleyquinn · Jul 11, 2019

yume said:
That's why i said they come close. Not that they have full package.

Maybe the fact that i talked about skaters who have to work a lot on jumps after made you think that, but i didn't put Yuna in that category. What she was doing in that era was perfectly fine. More than perfectly fine even since she always managed to finish on podium or even first place with skates that had many mistakes.

Fair enough - that's my mistake. I'm interested in who you consider to be a full package (if any).

Baron Vladimir · Jul 11, 2019

Mathman said:
Well, if so then she is presenting a balletic pose. (?)

We seem to be discussing different questions here.

And what is not balletic in being able to present exact balletic poses/movements on the ice. I don't see what is ununderstanble there. The poster didn't ask for judging skaters overal gracefulness/beauty or capacity for astonishing inherent musicallity, nor anybody asking from skaters to have that. You don't even need to like something to call it balletic (i for myself have never enjoyed ballet very much nor i find it that likeable as some other art/dance forms). If someone think that balletic means those things and have guts to judge it that way, its their own personal fight to go there i guess. Cause what is beautiful/likeable is extremely subjective category and there is no point to judge that :biggrin:

yume · Jul 11, 2019

theharleyquinn said:
Fair enough - that's my mistake. I'm interested in who you consider to be a full package (if any).

Midori Ito.

Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

colormyworld240

zounger

voolfee

TallyT

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yume

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TallyT

Reddi

Baron Vladimir

Tavi...

theharleyquinn

Mathman

Mathman

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Mathman

yume

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theharleyquinn

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yume

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