Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

Mathman · Jul 11, 2019

Baron Vladimir said:
The poster didn't ask for judging skaters overal gracefulness/beauty or capacity for astonishing inherent musicallity, nor anybody asking from skaters to have that. You don't need to like something to call it balletic.

I guess I misunderstood Colormyworld's point. I thought she was saying that to be "balletic" a skating performance must present a specific character from a specific ballet, along with the expected choreography traditionally associated with the role.

But I think that a skater might do ballet-like movements and poses more generically.

(Not to mention that other fans might use the word "balletic" in a different sense. "Graceful and pretty." How is this "balletic"? Well, ballerinas are graceful and pretty. I personally do not take offense at this appropriation of terminology.

Now, whether the result is an esthetically pleasing performance or whether it comes off as mere shtick, that is a separate question altogether. Personally, to me the John Curry piece is unique in the history of figure skating with respect to the quality of the balletic gloss. It seems that not everyone on this board agrees -- it is astonishing to me that they don't :laugh:

, but oh well, that's why we have a forum.

theharleyquinn · Jul 11, 2019

yume said:
Midori Ito.

I don't think Midori was as lacking in artistry as a lot of critics claimed, but I see Yuna's gap in tech as a bit narrower than Midori's gap in artistry. Maybe if there hadn't been requirements for spiral sequences or figures, respectively, those gaps might have been different. And again, it would be much harder to support Midori as a full package if we are analyzing artistry across eras the same way you suggest doing so for jumps.

I don't think Kristi was too far off either.

yume · Jul 11, 2019

theharleyquinn said:
I don't think Midori was as lacking in artistry as a lot of critics claimed, but I see Yuna's gap in tech as a bit narrower than Midori's gap in artistry. Maybe if there hadn't been requirements for spiral sequences or figures, respectively, those gaps might have been different. And again, it would be much harder to support Midori as a full package if we are analyzing artistry across eras the same way you suggest doing so for jumps.

I don't think Kristi was too far off either.

My intention wasn't to compare skaters from different eras (and in my initial post i talked about skaters that are almost from the same era). Midori have a full package for her era. 20-30 years after requirements are differents, so the construction of programs.
I could have said that Sonja Henie had the full package.
Since requirements were different for spins and spirals the only comparable thing is jumps. And if we have to compare, i don't think the gap between Yuna and Midori jump arsenal is that little.

I just hink that in Yuna's era i find no one with the full package. Kostner from 2013-2014 comes close though. Mao with no chronic URs would have been the full package of that era imo.
And in this era, the skaters i've named comes close.

Kwan from 1996 to 2002 has a full package imo. I didn't mention her because i'm not that a fan. But i recognize talent where it is.

Artistry is in the eye of the beholder. No matter the era, opinions will always be different because it is not a fact like jump. If you jump a 2A it can't be called a 3F. While if you translate ballet on ice some can say you're balletic while others can say that you're not balletic. It's maybe surprising that i talked about Mai Mihara and not more popular skaters.

theharleyquinn · Jul 11, 2019

yume said:
My intention wasn't to compare skaters from different eras (and in my initial post i talked about skaters that are almost from the same era). Midori have a full package for her era. 20-30 years after requirements are differents, so the construction of programs.
I could have said that Sonja Henie had the full package.
Since requirements were different for spins and spirals the only comparable thing is jumps. And if we have to compare, i don't think the gap between Yuna and Midori jump arsenal is that little.

I just hink that in Yuna's era i find no one with the full package. Kostner from 2013-2014 comes close though. Mao with no chronic URs would have been the full package of that era imo.
And in this era, the skaters i've named comes close.

Kwan from 1996 to 2002 has a full package imo. I didn't mention her because i'm not that a fan. But i recognize talent where it is.

Artistry is in the eye of the beholder. No matter the era, opinions will always be different because it is not a fact like jump. If you jump a 2A it can't be called a 3F. While if you translate ballet on ice some can say you're balletic while others can say that you're not balletic. It's maybe surprising that i talked about Mai Mihara and not more popular skaters.

Talking about Mai isn't surprising. All of the talent is there and its refined. She's just behind skaters like Alena/Rika in that she hasn't even had that stars-aligning program yet because of the choreographic decisions her team/JSF has made (although her FS did come close for me last season at times).

I think I see where you're coming from now. It's not even that I disagree with your separate points on Yuna OR Midori, it's just that I don't think a consistent rubric is being applied to both when Midori is considered a full package for her era and Yuna is not for hers. That probably comes down to me disagreeing with some of the leniency you're applying to artistry because the subjectivities are more pronounced and also to me believing that there are subjectivities about how different people evaluate jumps that are lost in these conversations (say, Tuktamysheva's 3A vs. Rika's 3A).

You weren't really asking for my opinion on this but as far as the balletic conversation goes, all I have to say is someone can perfectly borrow the moves of a ballet in their programs and yet still not perform the program well. Others can imitate the aura of ballet and yet still not perform the program well. For me, Alina's weaker performances of Don Quixote had the former. Kaetlyn Osmond's Black Swan had the latter. Otherwise I don't have strong feelings about the subject and don't really find the word "balletic" useful, especially since the issue extends far beyond ballet. Many ice dancers try to superficially imitate Latin dance without effectively performing a tango or samba. There's some innate musicality and performance factor in the skater that has to put it all together.

Baron Vladimir · Jul 11, 2019

Mathman said:
I guess I misunderstood Colormyworld's point. I thought she was saying that to be "balletic" a skating performance must present a specific character from a specific ballet, along with the expected choreography traditionally associated with the role.

But I think that a skater might do ballet-like movements and poses more generically.

(Not to mention that other fans might use the word "balletic" in a different sense. "Graceful and pretty." How is this "balletic"? Well, ballerinas are graceful and pretty. I personally do not take offense at this appropriation of terminology.

Now, whether the result is an esthetically pleasing performance or whether it comes off as mere shtick, that is a separate question altogether. Personally, to me the John Curry piece is unique in the history of figure skating with respect to the quality of the balletic gloss. It seems that not everyone on this board agrees -- it is astonishing to me that they don't , but oh well, that's why we have a forum.

Not really. She said while John Curry's performance is balletic, it's not the only legitime merit of what we should call balletic or not. And how is Alina (without being defined as balletic skater as John Curry) still balletic in her Don Quijote performance. Now, cause i explained her point to you, you can try to explain to me what other posters are trying to say with their replies to her :biggrin:

skylark · Jul 11, 2019

Zagitova is very far from being the greatest.

Having said that, I don't really believe in anyone being "the greatest" in figure skating. There are so many subtle variations to what makes a figure skater's performances great, and we're lucky to enjoy such variety and creativity in this sport and art.

Triple loop · Jul 12, 2019

I believe Alina Zagitova has the potential to join the elite group of great skaters. She is wonderful but she is still very young. I feel that we have to see how she does in her competitions that lead up to the 2022 Olympics. In my opinion, one doesn’t have to win every gold medal to be considered great. Look at Michelle Kwan and Mao Asada as examples. These ladies made a significant contribution with their technical mastery (Asada) and artistry (Kwan and Asada). I will always remember Asada’s 2014 and 2016 Long programs and Kwan’s multiple wins at the 2000, 2001, and 2003 Worlds. I loved their skating when they matured because they displayed more elegance, flow, and perfect posture. They never rushed their moves and paid attention to detail. Also, the manner in which they dealt with loss was quite impressive. They were just amazing. I hope to see Alina’s skating improve in time like them and that we will continue to be talking about her programs after she retires.

flanker · Jul 12, 2019

Triple loop said:
I believe Alina Zagitova has the potential to join the elite group of great skaters.

While the GOAT title is problematic, because there can be hardly find wide consent on proper criteria (and I think it is maybe not even worth it because people wil still like what they like), I believe that Alina is not a person on the waiting list to join elite group somewhere in the future. She is there already. Anybody can find some particular criterium in which Alina is not on par with his favorite(s) (she is not enough "balletic", "artistic" and whatever), but I can find others in which she is high above them (strength, difficulty, and even the artistry of her kind). I'm not saying that in her 17 she is best in everything or that she has no reserves. Of course she has and it is her who is saying "I can always do better/there is no limit for perfection". But I strongly believe there was very few if any 17 y. o. ladies before her with such level of "greatness" in them.

jenm · Jul 12, 2019

Alina, the Greatest? It's too early to tell. She hasn't yet the longevity and performances that shake people to the core.
I think as of the moment, Alina is a great athlete and a great champion (and person). No doubt. Absolutely.
I won't put her yet on the same ground as Yuna Kim or Hanyu or Mao Asada (of recent generation) or Michelle Kwan or Katarina Witt or Plushenko...
She hasn't yet a performance that I would watch multiple times to feel awed or like I would consider too beautiful for the world like Yuna's 2010 Oly programs or Les Mis or Send in the Clowns or Danse Macabre, or Hanyu's Seimei, Notte stellata, or Michelle Kwan Fields of Gold.

But she's just 17. The future is ahead of her. And she still has a lot of performances to make so I think this debate should be reserved when Alina retires.

Scott512 · Jul 12, 2019

flanker said:
While the GOAT title is problematic, because there can be hardly find wide consent on proper criteria (and I think it is maybe not even worth it because people wil still like what they like), I believe that Alina is not a person on the waiting list to join elite group somewhere in the future. She is there already. Anybody can find some particular criterium in which Alina is not on par with his favorite(s) (she is not enough "balletic", "artistic" and whatever), but I can find others in which she is high above them (strength, difficulty, and even the artistry of her kind). I'm not saying that in her 17 she is best in everything or that she has no reserves. Of course she has and it is her who is saying "I can always do better/there is no limit for perfection". But I strongly believe there was very few if any 17 y. o. ladies before her with such level of "greatness" in them.

Very few ladies have reached Alinas level by 16 years old and even fewer have won all the top gold medals in juniors and seniors the way Alina has.

Mathman · Jul 12, 2019

Scott512 said:
Very few ladies have reached Alinas level by 16 years old and even fewer have won all the top gold medals in juniors and seniors the way Alina has.

To me, though, this is a different question: "What figure skater achieved the most by age 16?"

Alina's competition in that category would be Tara Lipinski: 1 Olympic gold medal, 1 world championship, 2 grand prix finals -- but no distinctions at the junior level and before there was a four continents.

And Sonja Henie: 1 Olympic gold medal, 3 world championships. There were no junior events, Europeans or grand prix in those times.

flanker · Jul 12, 2019

Scott512 said:
Very few ladies have reached Alinas level by 16 years old and even fewer have won all the top gold medals in juniors and seniors the way Alina has.

Mathman said:
To me, though, this is a different question: "What figure skater achieved the most by age 16?"

Alina's competition in that category would be Tara Lipinski: 1 Olympic gold medal, 1 world championship, 2 grand prix finals -- but no distinctions at the junior level and before there was a four continents.

And Sonja Henie: 1 Olympic gold medal, 3 world championships. There were no junior events, Europeans or grand prix in those times.

When I've mentioned "greatness" for a 17 y. o. girl, I didn't have particularly medals in mind, but if we are still comparing, then I say that in direct competition Alina would defeat all those who are mentioned so often as her counterparts, if the competition would be by today's rules. You may object that in previous times programs were constructed differently because of a different (or not the same) requirements, so in cases of skaters who skated in the old systems it can't be directly measured, but that is what is done here all the time. Direct comparison. Also I say that it would be easier for Alina to do skate under the old rules than for skaters who ruled that time to do seven triples in one program and yet be artistic enough for high PCS :biggrin:

Mathman · Jul 12, 2019

flanker said:
In direct competition Alina would defeat all those who are mentioned so often as her counterparts, if the competition would be by today's rules.

I concede that point. If Sonja Henie, Tara Lipinski and Alina all took the ice right now and were judged by IJS rules, then Alina would win. Tara would come in second. Poor Sonja would be disqualified, being dead.

Mathman · Jul 12, 2019

Let me pontificate a little more about why these comparisons across the ages are not very convincing.

Alina says, "I am greater than Sonja Henie and this is how I can prove it. Score Henie's 1928 Olympic performance by my rules and with my judges. No fair talking about coulda, woulda, shoulda -- like Henie might have trained at least a double jump if such things were around in those days. No, that doesn't count. Just score what Henie put out on the ice, then me."

Zagitova:

Short Program 82.92
Long program 156.65
Total 239.57

Henie ... let's see, single Axel, 1.1 points. Spins? Pretty good but needed more variations for levels Footwork OK, transitions? there could be more of them. Skating skills, good.

Add it all up, let's say 25 points for the free skate.

Short program, 0.

Total 25

But then Sonja pipes up. OK, now let me score your program by my rules.

Zagitova: Free skating, 1st place. Figures 0 (last place). Remember, we are not scoring what someone might have been able to do, just what she did.

Henie: Free skating, 2nd. Figures, 1st. Total points, about 2350? (She actually scored 2452.25 with 1st in both segments).

I think I just made a silly post. I do not feel like I am any more confident about who is the true GOAT than I was before.

drivingmissdaisy · Jul 12, 2019

andromache said:
I promise that I am not intending to derail this thread , but I have to disagree on Sarah Hughes. Whereas I think the scoring made sense for Evan versus Plushenko (thanks IJS), I think Irina was kinda done dirty by the SP scoring. Sarah certainly got off to the wrong foot in her SP, and probably should've been in 5th or 6th after the SP. Whereas Irina probably should've been in 1st. There's no question that Sarah outdid everyone in the LP, however, IMO. It's similar to the ladies' event in Sochi - the home crowd really mattered. If the 2002 Olympics were not in the US, it is likely that Irina would've been in first after the SP, and the gold would've been hers if the LP played out the same.

I agree that, had everyone skated the same two programs anywhere other than the US, Irina would have won. However, it has proven difficult to win the women's event with everyone chasing you after the SP. Since 1992, only two SP leaders won in the seven ladies events.

drivingmissdaisy · Jul 12, 2019

theharleyquinn said:
I don't think Midori was as lacking in artistry as a lot of critics claimed, but I see Yuna's gap in tech as a bit narrower than Midori's gap in artistry. Maybe if there hadn't been requirements for spiral sequences or figures, respectively, those gaps might have been different. And again, it would be much harder to support Midori as a full package if we are analyzing artistry across eras the same way you suggest doing so for jumps.

Other than subjective opinions of artistry, Midori was the closest to having it all as a skater IMO. Her programs had a lot of intricacy for that time, and that simply wasn't rewarded if you weren't viewed as an artistic skater. With some small modifications to make her programs more COP-friendly, Midori's best performances like her 1990 Worlds LP or her programs at 1991 Lalique would still medal at, if not win, events today.

Triple loop · Jul 12, 2019

I believe Mao achieved success at the age of 15. She had already won the Junior Grand Prix, World Junior Championships, and the Senior Grand Prix Final . She had beaten Arakawa, Slutskaya, and Cohen (Olympic medalists) at that tender age. Many considered her to be the best figure skater in the world at that time but she was 87 days too young to compete at the 2006 Olympics. It was unfortunate that there was an age rule in 2006. I think she probably would have won that Olympics.

theharleyquinn · Jul 12, 2019

drivingmissdaisy said:
Other than subjective opinions of artistry, Midori was the closest to having it all as a skater IMO. Her programs had a lot of intricacy for that time, and that simply wasn't rewarded if you weren't viewed as an artistic skater. With some small modifications to make her programs more COP-friendly, Midori's best performances like her 1990 Worlds LP or her programs at 1991 Lalique would still medal at, if not win, events today.

Even Midori at 1988 Olympics could have medaled/won some events today.

Triple loop said:
I believe Mao achieved success at the age of 15. She had already won the Junior Grand Prix, World Junior Championships, and the Senior Grand Prix Final . She had beaten Arakawa, Slutskaya, and Cohen (Olympic medalists) at that tender age. Many considered her to be the best figure skater in the world at that time but she was 87 days too young to compete at the 2006 Olympics. It was unfortunate that there was an age rule in 2006. I think she probably would have won that Olympics.

This is so funny because that would have reframed how we would have seen that entire era and the conversation in this thread would have changed a lot. Is it fair to not consider Mao given that we know that? I don't know. She never got the chance so it's hard to just assume she would've won. What if Sasha had been old enough for Pyeongchang?

nussnacker · Jul 12, 2019

Triple loop said:
I believe Mao achieved success at the age of 15. She had already won the Junior Grand Prix, World Junior Championships, and the Senior Grand Prix Final . She had beaten Arakawa, Slutskaya, and Cohen (Olympic medalists) at that tender age. Many considered her to be the best figure skater in the world at that time but she was 87 days too young to compete at the 2006 Olympics. It was unfortunate that there was an age rule in 2006. I think she probably would have won that Olympics.

I also think Mao could've won Olympics that year. Maybe.
But during following olympic quad, when Mao and Yuna were competing against each other, edge and underrotation calls finally started to happen more or less often, which basically killed off any chances to compete with Yuna.

flanker · Jul 13, 2019

Mathman said:
I concede that point. If Sonja Henie, Tara Lipinski and Alina all took the ice right now and were judged by IJS rules, then Alina would win. Tara would come in second. Poor Sonja would be disqualified, being dead.

As they say in Red Dwarf, being dead won't ruin your career anymore

Sorry for my black humour, it is not meant in a bad way. But of course I mean them competing in their best.

It's like our legendary athlete and marathon man Emil Zátopek. He won marathon at the 1952 olympic games with time 2:23:03 (together with 10 000 m and 5 000 m). Today's best time is 2:01:39. That doesn't take anything of the greatness of Emil, among his titles he was a great innovator in training methods, but today the best runners would defeat him. Also, our today's best marathon man is Robert Štefko, who is 11 minutes faster than Emil, but only very few people know him, while Zátopek is still best known athlete of all time in my country.

Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

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