Page 6 of 22 FirstFirst 12345678910111213141516 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 422

Thread: Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

  1. #101
    GS Supporter flanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,128
    Country: Czech Republic

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Tara was referring to Alina's technical ability (although I don't consider Tara the last word on technique), not her carriage on the ice. Alina is bent over most of the time when she skates, and that detracts visually from her performances.
    Well, I didn't know that there is something by which I should be detracted till some people (lets call them usuall suspects) brought that here about a year ago. And after that, I still wasn't detracted...

  2. #102
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,433

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tere19 View Post
    In case you forgot nobody in 2018 olympics did quads or 3a ....didnt yuna have to compete against mao asada (3a) and miki ando (3lutz-3loop)?
    For a while. Alina had Zhenya in 2018 and then last year was tremendous competition with no let-up in sight this season and beyond.

  3. #103
    GS Supporter flanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,128
    Country: Czech Republic

    5 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tere19 View Post
    In case you forgot nobody in 2018 olympics did quads or 3a ....didnt yuna have to compete against mao asada (3a) and miki ando (3lutz-3loop)?
    Mirai Nagasu did 3A in a team competition (she messed it in singles).

  4. #104
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    92

    0 Not allowed!
    Ok thank you but only on team competition? So there were no quads or 3a in 2018 ladies singles ...crazy how much is going to change in 2022

  5. #105
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    614

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by flanker View Post
    Well, I didn't know that there is something by which I should be detracted till some people (lets call them usuall suspects) brought that here about a year ago. And after that, I still wasn't detracted...
    Tara and Johnny have criticized Kaori's carriage on the ice often and talk about how it detracts from her refinement/artistry on the ice (although many disagreed after the first time it was mentioned). I think they've talked about Bradie's stiffness too. Posture on the ice, especially in how skaters do crossovers, can provide some commentary on skating skills though.

  6. #106
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    139
    Country: Mexico

    5 Not allowed!
    I don't think it's possible to call one single athlete as the ultimate GOAT of any sport... even in more objective sports like football people argue all the time about who's the greatest (Maradona, Pele, Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo?) and it's probably even more complex in a sport like figure skating, where the rules, technical difficulty, judging and other elements are constantly evolving.

    It would probably be easier to agree on who's the GOAT of each particular era of figure skating. I haven't been following this sport for long enough to have an opinion on Michelle Kwan, Katarina Witt or anyone else from the old days, but for me, Yuna Kim is the greatest of her era and Alina is already the greatest of hers.

    I agree that maybe Alina's career is still short to compare it to the careers of other greats, but in only 2 seasons she has already made sure her name will be remembered in the history of figure skating. Her Grand Slam is no small feat and I'm sure we won't see anyone else repeating it in a long time.

    As she is only 17 and still competing, her legacy is still being written too and I'm excited to watch her career unfold and see her evolve as a skater

    PS: This argument never ends, because who we think is the "better skater" also depends a lot on our personal taste. I prefer the "Russian style" of skating and particularly Eteri's school... I can also appreciate the slower, lyrical, more princessy styles but they're usually not my favorite programs or skaters. I have noticed that a lot of north american fans seem to prefer these types of programs and I think maybe that's a reason they don't like Alina's programs.

  7. #107
    GS Supporter flanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,128
    Country: Czech Republic

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by theharleyquinn View Post
    Tara and Johnny have criticized Kaori's carriage on the ice often and talk about how it detracts from her refinement/artistry on the ice (although many disagreed after the first time it was mentioned). I think they've talked about Bradie's stiffness too. Posture on the ice, especially in how skaters do crossovers, can provide some commentary on skating skills though.
    I really don't care what they have said about "stiffness" or "carriage on the ice". What I'm saying is that I don't see anything that should detract me from any of Alina's skates, I don't see her being stiff when she does all those choreo movements and transtitions, I don't see her doing anything that program and choreography would not require from her. If you can't enjoy it, I don't take it from you, but not my problem.

  8. #108
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    614

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by flanker View Post
    I really don't care what they have said about "stiffness" or "carriage on the ice". What I'm saying is that I don't see anything that should detract me from any of Alina's skates, I don't see her being stiff when she does all those choreo movements and transtitions, I don't see her doing anything that program and choreography would not require from her. If you can't enjoy it, I don't take it from you, but not my problem.
    Of course everyone has their own preferences. Just making the point that it's not a criticism that was just "brought here" to criticize one skater in particular.

  9. #109
    GS Supporter flanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,128
    Country: Czech Republic

    3 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tere19 View Post
    Ok thank you but only on team competition? So there were no quads or 3a in 2018 ladies singles ...crazy how much is going to change in 2022
    There was an attempt in singles. And it makes no difference whether Alina had to face 3A in singles or in team competition. She won her part of team competition over Mirai who jumped clean 3A with a margin of 21 points.

    More than that, see what average score was during the reign of Yuna Kim for those on podium. Score over 200 was very rare, Yuna's record in total score of 228 points in 2010 was an extreme for that era. If wiki is correct, than Yuna achieved internationally total score over 200 eight times in her whole career.

    That is what Alina has in any competition (apart this year's Europeans). Today score over 200 can't even secure a medal for you. Last time Yuna was world champion she's received 218 and was only one with the total score over 200. this year that would not be enough for a podium and ten ladies managed to get over 200.

  10. #110
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    92

    2 Not allowed!
    But im sure that 6 years from now with 238 points you cant win a competition....but this is what happens in all sports

  11. #111
    Bona Fide Member yume's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    3,095

    3 Not allowed!
    No need to deny that Yuna's time was weaker. Her strengths were that she rotated, had clear edges (not so clear on the flip but anyway) and monstruous GOEs. Before 2008 she still had competition but after it was a lonely road because most of her main competitors were dinged hard by URs and edge calls (the time when TP s were actually doing their job and rules were more punishing) and were getting minus GOEs. That's why she could afford 3-4 costly mistakes and still win things. More, consistency wasn't as important than nowadays. In the olympic season i saw some skaters called insconsistents because of one mistake by competition. Because with that one mistake you can end off podium. Back in Yuna's time you were exceptionally consistent with one mistake per competition. And with 5 triples programs, 3T-3T, you were among the top skaters. Nowadays with that, unless your name is Kostner, you finish outside the top 10 at worlds.

    That's why i agree with posters who said that we can't compare eras. The level 10 years back is not the same level than today.
    Yuna was the greatest (scoring wise at least) of her time. Not sure that she would be called like that if she was competing in this era.

    Zagitova though, i can't say yet she's the greatest of her time. Because two seasons is short.

  12. #112
    GS Supporter flanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,128
    Country: Czech Republic

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tere19 View Post
    But im sure that 6 years from now with 238 points you cant win a competition....but this is what happens in all sports
    It is quite possible but also hypothetical, while we don't have anybody to compare for now. This was, on the other hand, a reaction to a very particular comparison of skaters and their achievements. So you can speculate if 238 will be or will be not enough lets say during the next olympics cycle, but you don't need to speculate whether today's competition is harder just by seeing the development of score doring last cca 10 years. From that point I'm saying Alina competes in much more equal and harder environment than stars of the past and if she (or anybody else) wants to win, she needs to deliver much more technically advanced programs then it was necessary before.

  13. #113
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    36,305
    Country: United States of America

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by flanker View Post
    From that point I'm saying Alina competes in much more equal ... environment.
    That could go either way, though. If you edge out a large field of excellent competitors, that's impressive.

    But if you score way more than anyone else and stand alone, does that mean that the competition was weak or that the star was in class by herself?
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-24-2019 at 04:05 PM.

  14. #114
    Bona Fide Member yume's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    3,095

    3 Not allowed!
    Imo if you score way more than anyone else while all other competitors were excellents and gave their best performances with no flaws on the ice, you're in class in yourself. If you score 20 points more because everyone else did mistakes or got dinged for their invisible flaws, you're in a weak field imo.

    However, i've seen major overscoring these last seasons so i'm not sure about that.

  15. #115
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    7,968

    3 Not allowed!
    I don't even think she's on par with Kristi Yamaguchi until she wins a second world title, much less Kwan, Kim, or Witt.

  16. #116
    GS Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    10,528

    0 Not allowed!
    Alina didn't score more than anyone else at Worlds 2018, where she finished off the podium, and at Euros 2019, where she failed to crack 200 and finished below her teammate, who was in her first senior season. So not such an unblemished two-year record.

  17. #117
    GS Supporter flanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,128
    Country: Czech Republic

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That could go either way, though. If you edge out a large field of excellent competitors, that's impressive.

    But if you score way more than anyone else and stand alone, does that mean that the competition was weak or that the star was in class by herself?
    Star was in her own class in that time, but in the same class there are numerous skaters now. The winner needs to deliver more to be star now. I remind this started as a reaction to claim that Alina can't compare with Yuna due to fact that Yuna (or other skaters named) was above the rest for a long time. But today skater needs more than that time and I don't think this is debatabe that the higher level you need to achieve the harder it is to be able to hold it for a long time.

    Also now we talk how hard it will be for Alina and others to compete with quads and 3As, but we don't know how long a lady will be able to skate programs with numerous jumps like that. Sasha is no doubt exceptional, she is literally natural wonder and I wish her the best (remember that at last domestic competition she received 104 just for TES in free skate), but we will see if it will be possible to skate like that for a long time.

  18. #118
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,433

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I don't even think she's on par with Kristi Yamaguchi until she wins a second world title, much less Kwan, Kim, or Witt.
    Her career was excellent. But Kristis OGM is not equal to Alinas in terms of perfrmznce as I recall. Didnt Kristi fall in Albeftville and still win gold?

  19. #119
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    36,305
    Country: United States of America

    3 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott512 View Post
    Her career was excellent. But Kristis OGM is not equal to Alinas in terms of perfrmznce as I recall. Didnt Kristi fall in Albeftville and still win gold?
    Hand down on a triple loop and doubled a triple Salchow. A wonderfully satisfying prerformance, none the less.

    To me, if we want to evaluate Kristi's influence on the sport we have to take into consideration her professional career as well. She is very likely the most successful, emulated and admired show skater of all time.

  20. #120
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    2,053

    1 Not allowed!
    In terms of achievements, she's done very well for herself and could continue to do so in the future... and so immediately that elevates her into the top group of skaters. However, just watching the actual skating I think she is nowhere near an all time great. There is so much room for improvement in presentation, carriage, flow... That being said, she's 17 so who knows how she will look as a skater as time goes by. I don't think her story is yet complete.

Page 6 of 22 FirstFirst 12345678910111213141516 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •