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Thread: Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    To me, if we want to evaluate Kristi's influence on the sport we have to take into consideration her professional career as well. She is very likely the most successful, emulated and admired show skater of all time.
    Even on her amateur career alone, Kristi tops Alina for now. Whatever mistakes she made, Kristi was the best at her Olympics, like Alina was the best at hers. Kristi was also the best in the field at two World Championships, whereas Alina has not been (yet). Using Euros or GPF achievements to elevate skaters in the rankings is sort of pointless, as many skaters are not eligible for Euros and could not win an event that didn't exist like the GPF.

  2. #122
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    On the technical side Alina has it all, jumps without any deductible flaws, great spins and step sequences. On the artistry side I am not as much of a fan, although I understand it's subjective.

    When it comes to greatness I don't just look at scoring myself. One reason why scoring in FS is very weird to me is that it seems like Skating Skills and Transitions are double counted, and I'm not sure if they should be a part of PCS. Also, Yuna as an example doesn't have a 3Lz-3Lo, but I haven't seen any skater (except Tuktik) jump like Yuna does and if she were skating with the current field of skaters I would want her GOE to be leagues above frankly.

    Still want to add that I definitely believe Alina is great.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Hand down on a triple loop and doubled a triple Salchow. A wonderfully satisfying prerformance, none the less.

    To me, if we want to evaluate Kristi's influence on the sport we have to take into consideration her professional career as well. She is very likely the most successful, emulated and admired show skater of all time.
    Those are two big mistakes. Kristis Olympic gold medal performance is not on par with Alinas who was Flawless in 2 programs. Alinas competition her entire senior career has also been much more difficult than Kristi's. That said I did enjoy Kristi a lot back in the day.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by theharleyquinn View Post
    Tara and Johnny have criticized Kaori's carriage on the ice often and talk about how it detracts from her refinement/artistry on the ice (although many disagreed after the first time it was mentioned). I think they've talked about Bradie's stiffness too. Posture on the ice, especially in how skaters do crossovers, can provide some commentary on skating skills though.
    To be fair, i've never heard someone who was commentating live ever criticized Alina's skating skills or posture/carriage/whatever you called it. Do you perhaps? Im only hearing that on forums and youtube channels, and i dont find those people more knowledgeable than NBC or Eurosport commentators for sure And i dont think they literally criticized Kaori and Bradie too, if i remembered well it was more an explanation why her components score may not be high as it could be. EDIT: and i must say i found those topics about best ever a little bit boring and outdated #sorrynotsorry

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott512 View Post
    Those are two big mistakes. Kristis Olympic gold medal performance is not on par with Alinas who was Flawless in 2 programs. Alinas competition her entire senior career has also been much more difficult than Kristi's. That said I did enjoy Kristi a lot back in the day.
    Yes, Kristi's program was flawed but it still doesn't take away from the fact that she's an OMG and has a senior career of highs that built to that point. Also, she was actually able to win the World's after the Olympics, which no OMG after her has to their credit. And while the content may be a lot weaker than what it is today, Alina has never competed against two people who were attempting triple axels at the Olympics, so I don't really know if the competition difficulty statement holds up.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by TA91 View Post
    Also, she was actually able to win the World's after the Olympics, which no OMG after her has to their credit.
    Ahem... 'scuse us, at least not in the ladies?



    The technical level is always going to keep going up (it may plateau at times), but the fact that the champions are getting younger and less mature does mean that it's a fact of life that depth of artistry and interpretation - which appears to be decreasingly important to TPTB - will be lessened. What you gain on the roundabouts.....

    Which begs the question, which would be the absolute GOATs, Torvill and Dean or Virtue and Moir? (don't ask me...) And in the end, what decides it? Persoinal choice? Expert opinions? Sheer numbers of consensus?

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott512 View Post
    Alinas competition her entire senior career has also been much more difficult than Kristi's.
    I mean... Tonya (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOP3Dj0DraQ) and Midori (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8hkPlkIcH4) weren't too bad.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by TA91 View Post
    Yes, Kristi's program was flawed but it still doesn't take away from the fact that she's an OMG and has a senior career of highs that built to that point. Also, she was actually able to win the World's after the Olympics, which no OMG after her has to their credit. And while the content may be a lot weaker than what it is today, Alina has never competed against two people who were attempting triple axels at the Olympics, so I don't really know if the competition difficulty statement holds up.
    It absolutely does not take away from her. Olympic gold is Olympic gold.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    To be fair, i've never heard someone who was commentating live ever criticized Alina's skating skills or posture/carriage/whatever you called it. Do you?
    I think that the sport has changed over the years. Having a "dancer's carriage" is not a consideration any more. (Although "carriage" is still mentioned as a factor under "Performance.")

    Historically, I think there were two skaters, Dorothy Hamill and Janet Lynn, who had that magnificent shoulder's back, chest out, neck relaxed thing going for them that knocked your socks off just looking at them. Nowadays, we see it only in an ice dancer like Guillaume Cizeron.

    To me the skaters of today have more of an "athlete's posture" than a dancer's, reflecting a different emphasis and expectation.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-24-2019 at 09:17 PM.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I forgot how good she was when she wa on. Too bad Tonya was a mental mess and was led astray by the goofballs in her life. That video was amazing. Too bad she couldnt bottle that performance

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    To be fair, i've never heard someone who was commentating live ever criticized Alina's skating skills or posture/carriage/whatever you called it. Do you perhaps? Im only hearing that on forums and youtube channels, and i dont find those people more knowledgeable than NBC or Eurosport commentators for sure And i dont think they literally criticized Kaori and Bradie too, if i remembered well it was more an explanation why her components score may not be high as it could be. EDIT: and i must say i found those topics about best ever a little bit boring and outdated #sorrynotsorry
    I agree that GOAT conversations are outdated. They're incompatible with how the sport has historically changed and will likely change again.

    Really confused as to how it's been suggested that these terms have come out of the ether of the internet. As Mathman mentioned, they've been historically used in the sport. Kaori was criticized. Her lack of firmness in her upper body position was said to have detracted from her skating. It was Tara who criticized it more often this season. And no, Alina wasn't criticized by the commentators, although it's typically only Johnny/Tara that would criticize something so insular to skating. Eurosport has been relatively (and sometimes overly) critical of Alina but they don't really pinpoint technical shortcomings on top skaters. In fact, most commentators don't. It's not really en vogue to do. That's what made Dick Button's honestly about Katarina Witt refreshing (but how could you not be with Midori competing alongside?). There's a reason I try to watch competitions without commentary and then see what was said later.

    I remember Scott Hamilton saying Yuna had "textbook" positions in her spirals, and as someone who enjoyed Yuna a lot, even I can admit that was not true - even about the specific spirals he was referencing in real time. It's no use being knowledgeable if you don't always deploy your knowledge when it counts. I wouldn't go as far to say Alina never has posture issues just because a commentator never mentioned them - most commentators don't reference anything that codes into the components score with any specificity, especially skating skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Historically, I think there were two skaters, Dorothy Hamill and Janet Lynn, who had that magnificent shoulder's back, chest out, neck relaxed thing going for them that knocked your socks off just looking at them. Nowadays, we see it only in an ice dancer like Guillaume Cizeron.

    To me the skaters of today have more of an "athlete's posture" than a dancer's, reflecting a different emphasis and expectation.
    I think this is true, but some are far below the curve compared to others. There are also non-ice dancers that are good. I like Evgenia Tarasova a lot.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think that the sport has changed over the years. Having a "dancer's carriage" is not a consideration any more. (Although "carriage" is still mentioned as a factor under "Performance.")

    Historically, I think there were two skaters, Dorothy Hamill and Janet Lynn, who had that magnificent shoulder's back, chest out, neck relaxed thing going for them that knocked your socks off just looking at them. Nowadays, we see it only in an ice dancer like Guillaume Cizeron.

    To me the skaters of today have more of an "athlete's posture" than a dancer's, reflecting a different emphasis and expectation.
    But some of Eurosport commentators are Ice Dance competitors from late 70s. They never had a problem with Alinas posture/carriage/whatever you called it. Quite otherwise, they highly praised her skating skills (like they did with most of the top skaters too). But i understand what are you trying to say. There are different types of posture, thats for sure. I think its more about orentantion in skating, or what different individuals can demonstrate better. Are you demonstrating your skating skills based on speed and motion, steps and turns, or based on lines and positions and deep edges. You cant do both at the same time.

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    Still kind of puzzled by this thread. Alina’s career to date is good but not among the greats. She didn’t have the greatest season this past year. Yes, she won Worlds but lost the Grand Prix Final and even her own nationals. Except for Worlds, Rika Kihira had a better season and better technical scores when she skated well. One OGM and one WorldChampionship puts Alina in the same category as Oksana Baiul, Tara Lipinski and Shizuka Arakawa—all very good but not in the conversation about the greats. It will be difficult for Alina to repeat as World Champion and even more so as OGM. We’ll see where she ends up but as of right now, she is quite far from the greatest.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by silveruskate View Post
    Also, Yuna as an example doesn't have a 3Lz-3Lo, but I haven't seen any skater (except Tuktik) jump like Yuna does and if she were skating with the current field of skaters I would want her GOE to be leagues above frankly.
    .
    But unfortunately we don't see Tuktik get GOEs leagues above the rest like Yuna got. Yes, Tuktik has no transitions before most of her jumping passes but Yuna was also doing that for 3/4 of her jumping passes. Though, Tuktik has tanos which became a thing to increase GOEs these last seasons.
    Scoring changed. The beauty of the jump itself isn't enough, transitions and other GOEs bullets matters more than before. And TPs became way too much lenients. If TPs 10 years back had the level of blindness of 2019 worlds TP, things might be different.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Are you demonstrating your skating skills based on speed and motion, steps and turns, or based on lines and positions and deep edges. You cant do both at the same time.
    Well said. Especially the emphasis on speed. The sport continues to change, making discussions of "all time great" problematic.

    Here is a speed skater's posture:

    https://cdnolympic.files.wordpress.c...lity=100&w=640
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-25-2019 at 04:45 AM.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by theharleyquinn View Post
    I remember Scott Hamilton saying Yuna had "textbook" positions in her spirals, and as someone who enjoyed Yuna a lot, even I can admit that was not true - even about the specific spirals he was referencing in real time.
    As a commentator Scott Hamilton always took on the role role of cheerleader rather than critic. "Look at that! -- a TRIPLE TOE LOOP!!!!!"

    It just wasn't in him to say anything negative about anybody.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-25-2019 at 04:52 AM.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Even on her amateur career alone, Kristi tops Alina for now. Whatever mistakes she made, Kristi was the best at her Olympics, like Alina was the best at hers. Kristi was also the best in the field at two World Championships, whereas Alina has not been (yet). Using Euros or GPF achievements to elevate skaters in the rankings is sort of pointless, as many skaters are not eligible for Euros and could not win an event that didn't exist like the GPF.
    How was Kristi better than Alina as an amateur when Alina won everything as an amateur? At best Kristi could only be Alinas equal as an amateur if she won everything.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott512 View Post
    Those are two big mistakes. Kristi's Olympic gold medal performance is not on par with Alinas who was Flawless in 2 programs.
    That is an intriguing question, too. Hanyu, for instance, is without question (see the other thread ) one of the all-time greats because he won two Olympic gold medals. But neither of his Olympic performances was his best work and he depended on mistakes by other competitors to cover for his own mistakes.

    On the other hand, Hanyu has given many magnificent and flawless performances at lesser events which are worthy of GOAT status. That is why I think we should look to "body of work" in these discussions.

    By the way, the coolest thing about Alina's Olympic performance was when, having backed off on her planned 3Lz+3Lo, she came roaring back on the second attempt. Guts = glory.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well said. Especially the emphasis on speed. The sport continues to change, making discussions of "all time great" problematic.

    Here is a speed skater's posture:

    https://cdnolympic.files.wordpress.c...lity=100&w=640
    Yeah. The equipment athletes use and other external factors (quality of ice, arenas) are changed too. As the rules and requirements. I read for example an article where it is explained how Jesse Owens could probably run the similar 100m time as Usain Bolt with his type of shoes and on todays tracks.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That is an intriguing question, too. Hanyu, for instance, is without question (see the other thread ) one of the all-time greats because he won two Olympic gold medals. But neither of his Olympic performances was his best work and he depended on mistakes by other competitors to cover for his own mistakes.

    On the other hand, Hanyu has given many magnificent and flawless performances at lesser events which are worthy of GOAT status. That is why I think we should look to "body of work" in these discussions.

    By the way, the coolest thing about Alina's Olympic performance was when, having backed off on her planned 3Lz+3Lo, she came roaring back on the second attempt. Guts = glory.
    But this is what the olympics is about do everything good at the right time stand the pressure...
    For some reason i have notice all Eteris girls do that so if in the first one doesnt turn out they can do it the second time 😉

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