Alina Zagitova, the Greatest? | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Alina Zagitova, the Greatest?

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Elucidus

Match Penalty
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Nov 19, 2017
She has a grace, a serenity, a performance quality and amazing figure skating skills, at a level that is far beyond her young years.

While she definitely has many wonderful traits - SS is not one of them, I am afraid. Bad edges, bad speed, bad flow, bad posture, bad gliding etc. It's her main weakness IMO. On other hand - she has very good level of artistry (PE, IN) despite what many people here think. Therefore it's SS she should work for first of all - her presentation is mature enough already. You would be hard pressed to find better Black Swan on ice or Christine from PotO ever, for example.

Still, as for GOAT - it's definitely Trusova for me. While she is too young and without senior medals yet - she is true athlete who will stay in history books and changed the sport FOR REAL. Not only that - she singlehandedly pushes fs and did for its popularity so much already - that it can be comparable with Hanyu or Plushenko. Only on ladies side.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
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Epic signature performance = red ballerina FS at the olympics.
Epic. Signature. Performance.

I was thinking the same thing. And Alina's performance in the Olympics was the most technically difficult program any ladies gold medalist has ever had to win the Olympics.
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
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Feb 25, 2014
I was thinking the same thing. And Alina's performance in the Olympics was the most technically difficult program any ladies gold medalist has ever had to win the Olympics.

Wouldn't we generally expect that the latest Olympic champion would have the most technically difficult program of any of the ladies OGMs, especially in the IJS era? I guess if Midori had won, that wouldn't have been true for several champions in a row. Nonetheless, I'd expect we'll be able to say that about the 2022 OGM also.
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
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Wouldn't we generally expect that the latest Olympic champion would have the most technically difficult program of any of the ladies OGMs, especially in the IJS era? I guess if Midori had won, that wouldn't have been true for several champions in a row. Nonetheless, I'd expect we'll be able to say that about the 2022 OGM also.

You make it sound so ordinary. ;) Fair point though.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
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While she definitely has many wonderful traits - SS is not one of them, I am afraid. Bad edges, bad speed, bad flow, bad posture, bad gliding etc. It's her main weakness IMO. On other hand - she has very good level of artistry (PE, IN) despite what many people here think. Therefore it's SS she should work for first of all - her presentation is mature enough already. You would be hard pressed to find better Black Swan on ice or Christine from PotO ever, for example.
.
But if you look at categories which define SS by ISU, her skating skills are very good, if not excellent. She was surelly excellent (at Worlds) in four of those categories as 1) use of deep edges (confirmed by Eurosport comentators btw), steps and turns 2) varies use of speed, power and acceleration 3) use of multidirectional skating 4) use of one foot skating. Even if her 5) flow and glide and 6) precision and rhythmic knees action could be better, her SS score based on average of those 6 categories still should be high, as it was tho She is surely not Cizeron, or 9,5 skater in SS , but that doesn't mean she didn't deserve high enough SS scores based on what SS are actually defined.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
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steps and turns 2) varies use of speed, power and acceleration 3) use of multidirectional skating 4) use of one foot skating
Everyone and their grandmothers uses mentioned above traits in their step sequences though :confused2: Question is - how exactly one can determine various degrees of quality of those traits? There is nothing in rules about that.
All I can say though is that I wasn't impressed by her SS in WC Carmen at least.
 

TallyT

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Still, as for GOAT - it's definitely Trusova for me. While she is too young and without senior medals yet - she is true athlete who will stay in history books and changed the sport FOR REAL. Not only that - she singlehandedly pushes fs and did for its popularity so much already - that it can be comparable with Hanyu or Plushenko. Only on ladies side.

Ummm, given that people quite reasonably want Alina to show more than 2 years as senior before calling her GOAT, it is just a little premature to crown someone who has yet to step on the senior rink??? And as for as popularity, does anyone outside hard core skating fans and/or Russia have the faintest idea who she is?

I'm not saying she won't make GOAT but its at LEAST 4 years too soon to say (and before anyone says it, the tiny American girl is even further, pretty please)
 
Joined
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Ummm, given that people quite reasonably want Alina to show more than 2 years as senior before calling her GOAT, it is just a little premature to crown someone (Trusova) who has yet to step on the senior rink?

It is kind of interesting, though, to look at the parallels with men’s skating.

The last man to win the Grand Slam of Figure Skating (Olympics, Worlds, Euros/4CCs, GP Final) was Evan Lysacek. His margin of victory at the Olympics was provided by backloading more elements than his chief rival did. Yet what Lysacek is remembered for is being the last men’s Olympic champion to win without a quad.

The Trusova generation might very well usher in a new era of ladies’ figure skating where a quad (or at least a triple Axel) will be necessary to win a gold medal.
 

zounger

Medalist
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Jan 18, 2017
What we need here is a well-defined objective criteron. :laugh: I propose the following:

Olympic gold medal = 4 points, silver =2, bronze =1.
World Championship = 1 point.
Europeans, 4CC, GP Final and Jr. Worlds = 0.5

That seems fair. ;) So who's the GOAT?

Modern era (last half century):

Zagitova = 6.5 points
Medvedeva = 6.5 points
Yamaguchi = 6.5 points
Kwan = 9 points
Asada = 9 points
Kim = 10.5 points
Slutskaya = 11 points
Witt = 15 points.

Oldies but goodies:

Jeanette Alweg = 7 points
Barbara Ann Scott = 7 points
Herma Szabo =9 points
Tenley Albright = 9 points
Carol Heiss = 11 points
Sonja Henie = 25 points

(This excludes pairs titles, North American Championships, Olympic team medals,etc.)

:)

We can live with this metric, as far you provide as with, how to apply the triangular inequality between our different favorites :biggrin:
 

flanker

Record Breaker
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There is one funny paradox. Just two or three months ago there was a talk "Alina already won everything, she can retire, because she won't have further motivation" (preceded by "Alina won't win anything in the future, she should retire before it's too late" :) ). And now we are talking about what would make her GOAT. I think this is quite positive shift :biggrin:
 

Scott512

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Feb 27, 2014
There is one funny paradox. Just two or three months ago there was a talk "Alina already won everything, she can retire, because she won't have further motivation" (preceded by "Alina won't win anything in the future, she should retire before it's too late" :) ). And now we are talking about what would make her GOAT. I think this is quite positive shift :biggrin:

LOL yes indeed!
 

Baron Vladimir

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Dec 18, 2014
Everyone and their grandmothers uses mentioned above traits in their step sequences though :confused2: Question is - how exactly one can determine various degrees of quality of those traits? There is nothing in rules about that.
All I can say though is that I wasn't impressed by her SS in WC Carmen at least.

It is not that much about different degrees of quality (or how beautiful looks her one foot skating), it is more about in which capacity skaters can demonstrate those during theirs program, the crucial word in those recomendations is use of. For instance Zagitova used those requirements during the whole program, not just during her step sequence. If you can used it more time during your program that means your SS possess quality (you can demonstrate SS's quality in different ways of course and you can personaly like/not like that kind of demonstrated quality, but it is still a quality)
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
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Dear, maybe you opened this thread with a good purpose, but i think that unfortunately this thread will get closed in a few hours, with the amount of hate that will be spread here soon...

This thread still going strong. Lots of good input.
 

Lambari

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 21, 2014
Narratives around a skater can change very quickly, one season you're proclaimed as transcendent, the next you're supposed to never reach a podium again and vice versa. That's the nature of a fast paced sport and it seems even more evident in ladies. That's why in my opinion a minimum of roughly 4 years in seniors or one full olympic cycle is necessary to predict more accurately how the current ladies would fair out in the endless 'greatest' discussions. The narrative that prevails by popular opinion, although never unanimous, is the one that will mark your career and that's based on your body of work. Unless there's any unforeseeable situation, Alina is ultimately the one in control of that.
Personally I'm not drawn to her skating and as any skater she does have shortcomings. However if Alina gives quite a few performances perceived by popular opinion as 'transcendent' in the next seasons of her senior carrer and more medals along the way then why not consider her? One common denominator is that the ones with the most persuasive 'GOAT' claims have had prosperous long careers (long by skating standards at least) and a positive impact in the sport. In the end it's a 'title' bestowed by popular opinion based on perception. It's futile to count just medals if usually it encompasses more attributes. Based on her remarks she's got a good head on her shoulders and is nowhere done yet, time will tell how she will be mentioned in this conversation.
 

AkikoNana

Rinkside
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Mar 24, 2018
In my opinion what makes great a skater is not the number of victories; we know, one could simply be at the right place and right time or have for an amount of time favorable situation that makes him/her win for a long time. But this can’t make him/her great, it’s only the winner.

What makes a skater great is THE WAY he/her achieve something.
I don’t know if Alina is the greatest; maybe not yet. But nothing can erase from my mind that moment in the Olympic FS when she recovered the loop combo with such power. Or the perfect black swan SP. And both at the age of 15.
This year she struggled a lot but she compete beside post-olimpic season, chemical burns etc ending the season with two almost clean programs.
And we can’t forget that she’s achieved these results after breaking her legs and give up on skating few years ago.
All the names quoted in this thread are remembered for something special like that: Slutskaya wins for a long time beside healthy issues etc
So...I don’t think we can easily find the greatest, but certainly Alina is in the group of the great of all time.
 

jenaj

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Country
United-States
Alina won by what--a point?-- over Evgenia at the Olympics. And Evgenia has won Worlds twice, the GPF twice, Euros twice, Russian Nationals twice, Junior Worlds and has an Olympic silver medal. Calling Alina among the greatest and treating Evgenia as an after thought is strange. I wish Evgenia had gone to Worlds in 2018. She probably would have won, putting her more in the mix as a possible all-time great.
 

Fluture

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Apr 26, 2018
Alina won by what--a point?-- over Evgenia at the Olympics. And Evgenia has won Worlds twice, the GPF twice, Euros twice, Russian Nationals twice, Junior Worlds and has an Olympic silver medal. Calling Alina among the greatest and treating Evgenia as an after thought is strange. I wish Evgenia had gone to Worlds in 2018. She probably would have won, putting her more in the mix as a possible all-time great.

1.31 points that have haunted me ever since lol.

Why shouldn‘t both be among the greatest ever? Zhenya is certainly not an afterthought, she has had one of the longest victory streaks in modern skating. She’s also managed something that Alina hasn’t yet - she’s stood on the podium of the most important competition for the entire 6 season she’s competed internationally, junior and senior. She still has two Olympic medals, even if none of them is gold. She was the one who started the whole backloading/tano stuff. The other girls followed her example and improved on it. Plus all the other medals and records she has of course. And also imo, she’s had some pretty memorable programs as well. I‘m not sure how likely it is that she‘ll even make it to the next Olympics but no matter what, I hope she competes for a long time to come because I feel like we might see even more artistic growth from her.

Personally, I don‘t think there is such a thing as a GOAT in figure skating. Times change, skaters change, the technical difficulty changes. In the end there will be too many legends who could make a case for being THE greatest ever. And there will always be disagreements anyway.
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Alina won by what--a point?-- over Evgenia at the Olympics. And Evgenia has won Worlds twice, the GPF twice, Euros twice, Russian Nationals twice, Junior Worlds and has an Olympic silver medal. Calling Alina among the greatest and treating Evgenia as an after thought is strange. I wish Evgenia had gone to Worlds in 2018. She probably would have won, putting her more in the mix as a possible all-time great.

To be honest, I don't think she would have won Worlds. She skated at the Olympics out of sheer force of will given her injury and her technique was hanging on then.
 

Tere19

Rinkside
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Jun 23, 2019
Alina won by what--a point?-- over Evgenia at the Olympics. And Evgenia has won Worlds twice, the GPF twice, Euros twice, Russian Nationals twice, Junior Worlds and has an Olympic silver medal. Calling Alina among the greatest and treating Evgenia as an after thought is strange. I wish Evgenia had gone to Worlds in 2018. She probably would have won, putting her more in the mix as a possible all-time great.

But winning for 2 years without being beat how do you do that??? I know if does not exist but back when summer and winter olympics were in the same year ....EM would have won if the olympics were just like alinas just in her first senior year...
I see people already dismising the 3a for valieva and some novices that turn junior this year...
Even if it was 1.31 Alina had higher tech...so apparently EM programs were going to be more difficult but Eteri said the injury didnt let them work normally so the strongest : healthy ,2 years and 5 months younger and sporty won ..the strongest always have to win ..EM was not the stongest from the very begging of the season.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
[Evgenia] also managed something that Alina hasn’t yet - she’s stood on the podium of the most important competition for the entire 6 season she’s competed internationally, junior and senior...

Here are two streaks that I find remarkable:

Yuna Kim never finished off the podium in any competition at any level in her entire career.

Michelle Kwan had a six-year span (1995-96 to 2000-01) where she finished first or second at every event she entered. Some 30 major competitions in all.
 
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