Yuzuru Hanyu, Greatest Or Not The Greatest?

TontoK said:

Fun Fact: In addition to three North American titles, Dick Button was also European Champion in 1948. That was the last year that North Americans were allowed to compete at Euros.

While there are many criteria one could use in measuring the GOAT, Two Time OGMs have to be in the conversation. That would include both Yuzu and Button.

I lean towards Button because he spearheaded the technical leap that led to the exciting men's competitions we see today. He truly changed the sport forever.

And, to be honest, I've never quite been a full bore Yuzu fan. His style just doesn't suit me. Personal preference - no shade.

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Thank you Tontok!! Agree with u on so many fronts...Dick Button exemplifies the sport of figure skating and has a body of work, a legacy and commitment to the sport that no one will ever surpass that is what makes him the greatest of all time

andromache said:

Out of curiosity, who do you think should've won the gold in Sochi? The men's LP was so bad....I've never before seen anyone argue that Hanyu was not the rightful winner.

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You know a lot of people have complained about Chan falling and winning in the past; my recollection at Sochi while Chan wasn't perfect and he had errors he didn't fall like Yuzuru. so an argument Chan should have had gold plus one can argue Chan deserved more pc wise. But regardless, Hanyu is a great one maybe not the greatest. But that is up to the eye of the beholder. Dicky Button, I agree might be deemed the greatest. Maybe we should wait and see what Nathan Chen does.

4everchan said:

i don't think yuzu is the greatest ... but i am not saying anything new you haven't heard before

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Yes, but the real question here is: do YOU hear yourself saying that, seeing how you always forget to put in your hearing aids and dentures, old man?

Waaaaahhhh!!! I forgot the most important thing:

Yuzu even managed to turn Scott Moir into a friggin crybaby with his 4Lz at this year's FaOI in Kobe

Isnt it funny how a thread was open for Alina because she came from juniors to seniors in time and she won the OGM at 15 and at 16 worlds... at yuzuru that has 2 OGM gets his greatnes questioned??

Of course he's the greatest. How's that even a question.

Edit: Aww, polls are not allowed. Sorry!

You know a lot of people have complained about Chan falling and winning in the past; my recollection at Sochi while Chan wasn't perfect and he had errors he didn't fall like Yuzuru. so an argument Chan should have had gold plus one can argue Chan deserved more pc wise.

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Chan made more errors than Hanyu, that whilst not technically falls, were very disruptive to the programs and brought down PCS. Not to say Hanyu already had points buffer from leading the SP, which was a milestone world records at that time being the first SP to cross 100 pts. And as mentioned already, Button also fell in his Olympics and no one would hold that against him.

Tere19 said:

Isnt it funny how a thread was open for Alina because she came from juniors to seniors in time and she won the OGM at 15 and at 16 worlds... at yuzuru that has 2 OGM gets his greatnes questioned??

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It is also funny to read in the ladies thread the idea of GOAT is wide enough for 7-8 ladies, to be able to cover certain ladies, whilst here in the men thread GOAT is 'THE' greatest, not more than one. Double standards for a certain continents' skaters very obvious

Well because is clear yuzuru = 2OGM in male singles ...that says it all....waiting for a lady in the near future to do it...(yes i know katarina witt) but i say now in this era

wasn't the greatness of 2OGM because it was back to back? not /just/ cause they were two gold medals? something no one was able to do since Button 1948 and 1952? You can argue Button was better but I think its impossible to compare two skaters from two different eras. So lets say (to appease everyone) that Yuzuru is the greatest of this century.

Also who said there can only be one GOAT? they both did amazing things for the sport, they both can share the title.

One thing that can be mentioned about Dick Button is this. He not only "invented" the double Axel and triple loop, he invented the whole modern jump technique of spinning in the air. (Or rather his coach, Gustave Lussi did.)

Nowadays skaters do quads -- but that's just adding an extra revolution to the Button-Lussi method. :yes:

DaNiCG said:

wasn't the greatness of 2OGM because it was back to back? not /just/ cause they were two gold medals? something no one was able to do since Button 1948 and 1952? You can argue Button was better but I think its impossible to compare two skaters from two different eras. So lets say (to appease everyone) that Yuzuru is the greatest of this century.

Also who said there can only be one GOAT? they both did amazing things for the sport, they both can share the title.

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Yess i forgot that too back to back

Mathman said:

One thing that can be mentioned about Dick Button is this. He not only "invented" the double Axel and triple loop, he invented the whole modern jump technique of spinning in the air. (Or rather his coach, Gustave Lussi did.)

Nowadays skaters do quads -- but that's just adding an extra revolution to the Button-Lussi method. :yes:

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Button mentioned himself in the latest NHK documentary from this winter that Hanyu strikes out in the modern era, because he tries to add new aspects to the sport despite very narrow rules that make big experiments barely possible.

I think a revolution that many people associate with Hanyu is the next level/dimension of transition work like jumping from difficult steps (his back counter and twizzle 3A are paramount examples) or difficult spin entries. Hanyu is the pioneer of melting quads and other difficult elements into the choreography. In other words: the fusion of hardest technique and artistry. This could have a key impact on the current debate whether figure skating competitions should be split into a technical and an artistic program or not. Hanyu has proved that it's possible to merge both aspects and that they belong together.

Another Button-like rebellion is his 4T+3A sequence. It's not really worth in points, but he does it, because it's spectacular and no one else has ever done it before in competition. This could lead to a popularity boom of sequences in the future. Some other skaters experiment with quad sequences already. I think, we will see the full magnitude of his influence over the next 5-10 years.

DaNiCG said:

wasn't the greatness of 2OGM because it was back to back? not /just/ cause they were two gold medals? something no one was able to do since Button 1948 and 1952? You can argue Button was better but I think its impossible to compare two skaters from two different eras. So lets say (to appease everyone) that Yuzuru is the greatest of this century.

Also who said there can only be one GOAT? they both did amazing things for the sport, they both can share the title.

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After the initial "lol troll", this thread got me thinking about why so many people, fans and commentators to go off and proclaim him the greatest. I think saying that Yuzuru's status comes from 2 OGMs is simplifying it because there are skaters who have overall more hardware than Yuzu.

It's an amalgam of a) 2 OGMs b) a couple of World Records c) the rare combination of both the sheer quality and difficulty of technical content and high artistic value d) refusal to cut corners artistically in order to preserve technical content e) a fairly unique skating style f) how many people actually dig his skating style g) that he's still going on despite all he has accomplished.

Hearing tech-focused commentators in my country, who have been commenting for 30 years, call him "the skater of all time" after he loses to Nathan is pretty telling regarding the impact he has had on the sport. One of the reasons for that proclamation was definitely the fact that Yuzu stayed and upped his tech - when he could have retired. They kept wondering what kept him going - and could only come up with "he loves figure skating that much". It's the combination of accomplishments, technical and artistic quality and passion for what he does that make people proclaim him the greatest.

To be fair, I think when people proclaim "the greatest", they don't actually think back through all the history of sport. It's rather "the greatest I recall" - but many of them recall quite a lot.

Tere19 said:

Yess i forgot that too back to back

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I don't get the "back to back" thing. Of course if you win the gold medal at two Olympics they will be back to back. Has anyone ever won two Olympic championships that were not back to back?

(Yes. Gorgeeva and Grinkov and Virtue and Moir.)

greatest, IMHO is not only about achievements and medals.... and that' is why, I do not give that label to yuzuru. I respect his accomplishments but his skating does not move me. So while some refer to his back to back olympic gold medals, those are not the programs I rewatch, especially not Sochi, with a couple falls.

I personally don’t care who the greatest is, and neither should you:
We should value every great skater who adds to the sport or has nice skating or technique,
Rather than try rate who is better etc. No skater is perfect, and they all have strengths and weaknesses,
Let’s just celebrate the diversity in skating!

Henni147 said:

Let's put it this way:

If three serious GOAT candidates (Button, Plushy, Yags) all praise you and stan you and become your fanboys, you must be the real deal


EDIT: Yuzu even managed that Yags and Plushy root for him without eating each other. If that's not GOAT power...

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Yagudin said he will be a flower boy just to be close to him. No bigger compliment needed.

4everchan said:

greatest, IMHO is not only about achievements and medals.... and that' is why, I do not give that label to yuzuru. I respect his accomplishments but his skating does not move me. So while some refer to his back to back olympic gold medals, those are not the programs I rewatch, especially not Sochi, with a couple falls.

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Oh, of course it's not just medals.Evan Lysacek won an OGM and he's barely an afterthought in any conversation going on here. Yuzu's appeal and "the greatest" accolades he receives are based on way more than medals.

4everchan said:

greatest, IMHO is not only about achievements and medals.... and that' is why, I do not give that label to yuzuru. I respect his accomplishments but his skating does not move me. So while some refer to his back to back olympic gold medals, those are not the programs I rewatch, especially not Sochi, with a couple falls.

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From that point of view Hanyu must be the GOAT of GOATs thinking of the sheer number of people, who ARE moved, amazed and inspired by him all over the planet. You just have to look, how many positive comments the latest collection of his Olympic performances received within the first two days (during the off-season).

Hanyu has probably the most dedicated fandom of any sport as an individual athlete. Olympic Channel, Laureus and any other organization with SM can confirm this. He's the no. 1 clickbait for tweets, promotions and videos at the moment. Disney has probably never sold more plushies of Winnie the Pooh than over the last Olympic cycle.

His influence reaches far beyond the boundaries of figure skating. We have countless different artists, lately from the US like the ballet group from Kansas, who performed 'Notte Stellata' at the Future Stages Festival two weeks ago, then we have pianist Kelly Moran with her Origin tribute or painter Elizabeth Peyton, who's portrait of Hanyu has been sold for 475,000 Dollars.

In terms of emotional bond, dedicated fans and popularity Hanyu is the winner of winners among male skaters of any era, that's for sure. He is the bestselling ambassador for the sport that IOC, ISU and JSF could hope for.

That he cannot move all 7,674,575,000 people on the planet with his skating is natural. Tastes are different. But the number of people he could reach, is enormous and that's what counts.


#footnote: It's true that Hanyu's Olympic freeskates weren't flawless, but (and that's why so many people love him) his programs still worked despite the mistakes. He had so many other great stuff to offer (especially in Seimei last year) that the errors couldn't kill the overall quality and entertainment factor.

Henni147 said:

From that point of view Hanyu must be the GOAT of GOATs thinking of the sheer number of people, who ARE moved, amazed and inspired by him all over the planet. You just have to look, how many positive comments the latest collection of his Olympic performances received within the first two days (during the off-season).

Hanyu has probably the most dedicated fandom of any sport as an individual athlete. Olympic Channel, Laureus and any other organization with SM can confirm this. He's the no. 1 clickbait for tweets, promotions and videos at the moment. Disney has probably never sold more plushies of Winnie the Pooh than over the last Olympic cycle.

#footnote: It's true that Hanyu's Olympic freeskates weren't flawless, but (and that's why so many people love him) his programs still worked despite the mistakes. He had so many other great stuff to offer (especially in Seimei last year) that the errors couldn't kill the overall quality and entertainment factor.

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Ok I won't go as far as to say any sport, when the OC channel don't include the mass popular sports like soccer, tennis, basketball. But representatives of the IOC have confirmed that at least for the videos of the Olympic centric sports they have released, Yuzu has garnered more views than any other athletes, not just in Japan but around the world.

And whilst online views of programs are indicative, I would say the best measure of how much people actually enjoy his programs is reflected in the turnouts for his competition and ice shows - the Pooh rains speaks for themselves at competitions, and his ice shows tickets sell out within minutes of release for 30K+ seats. Even US media (which isn't exactly fond of him, for obvious reasons), have articles, commentators, and journalist calling him a Rockstar, mentioning how surprised they are the audience cries for him at competitions (whether he wins or loses) because they have never seen anything like it before, and even admits his popularity is unprecedented in the history of figure skating. And these people have been through the different eras of skating, including the times of the US ladies boom, yet they are still flabbergasted by the sheer amount of support he gets.

For people to actually spend the amount of money, time and effort to fly to the other side of the globe just to see him skate for like 10-20 minutes, they have got to really love his programs. And this is all to do with the quality of his skating and little relevance with his medals, since people can't 'watch' his medals. You can say he is one of the few that 'move' lots of people to the extent they move with him around the world every year (sorry for the bad pun). Figure skating is often called a combination of sports and art. His titles speaks for themselves for the Sports part, whilst for the Arts part, although it is subjective and he won't be every person's cup of tea, there are objective facts and statistics (as listed above) that points to the sheer number of people for which he is their cup of tea, and is in a number unprecedented in men.